Newsmeldung von slashCAM: Test: Short Summary SonyEX3 handling of pre-rob - 5 Jun 2008 11:57:00 > As already mentioned, we had the pre-EX3 of just a few minutes in hand, therefore, a pair of fast, fleeting impressions in terms of handling, weight distribution, Shottransition, Chromakorrektur and ND filter.
Antwort von camworks:
s.slashcam to your ps:
if you already have a comparative test ex1/hvx200, then please wear it in the camcorder synonymous database of all available video resolutions of the HVX200 an AND not only 720er resolutions. me anyway your tests a bit strange. in the scene very excited discussed problems of ex1 (schärfe loss in connection with the ND filter, rolling-shutter effect and poor processing) will be with you does not even mention ... I will not say yes, of sony that ye are bought, but a little odd, I find your ex hype already!
Antwort von rob:
Hi Arndt,
as in PS specifically to read, different systems have different strengths and weaknesses:
The EX1 scores in Lowlight and sharpness, however, the HVX200 in postproduction workflow.
Until the EX1 came out, the Canon prosumer cams for a long time leader in the sharpness of our thing. Eventually there will be another camcorder, which again will be better.
I want you not suppose that you bought are of Panasonic.
As for the discussion of problems with the Auflagenmaß and Rolling Shutter (which is in almost every CMOS sensor can provoke, if you really want), so for this discussion is significant that of individual users, it is held, the daily number of hours with the Camcorders and thus avoid hidden synonymous strengths or weaknesses of their work unit can accurately analyze - this is exactly because of this forum.
In a test of the model series, we take such suggestions to be happy with.
Many greetings
Rob
Antwort von WoWu:
Perhaps we should take these suggestions really take the chance and now hold at the chance and with the EX3 even less fun for free, but now well-known shortcomings of the EX1 s.der EX3 verify.
Otherwise, I can criticism of Arndt well.
Perhaps using the editor so the ample room for improvement.
Antwort von domain:
I recently had the opportunity in a company, which is based on equipment for Videopoproduzenten and on 3-D productions specializes on the head with professional cameras to speak.
First on the RED One, there next to some other monstrous things up and in full action was observed.
Last, I wanted to comment on the EX1 / 3 to hear. He said that they would go away like the warm rolls, would have little quirks, but it would still, in view of the price sensationell in this class.
Antwort von camworks:
Hi Arndt,
as in PS specifically to read, different systems have different strengths and weaknesses:
Rob yes, but it represents the hvx in the database in such a way as if they were a mere 720p camera would. which may very well be synonymous several 1080er modes as you surely know. this is nothing in the camcorder database to read. the course, the distorted impression that the comparative list of readers. dv-HVX200 in the synonymous, incidentally, is not there, but at the ex.
ex1 and the series is already a model and which will not weaken later entered into the database (something that should be me in the points down), not synonymous, having network-wide known. I think at least questionable, if a camera with the capabilities and tasachen omitted in favor of the weakening competitive unmentioned.
and incidentally: schärfe is not everything. comes just depends on how the various strengthening and weakening weighted. in relation to the canon falls on me that although they are mega sharp, today the buyers rather little attention seems to be. the signs for me pointed out that the buyers, the focus is not sooo important.
and of course I am not of panasonic bought that I have no preference warmly. I have no opportunity synonymous, camera reviews to write and manufacturers to sell advertising. so far the opposition was now more of a small rohrkrepierer. ;-)
Antwort von rudi:
yes, but it represents the hvx in the database in such a way as if they were a mere 720p camera would. which may very well be synonymous several 1080er modes as you surely know. Here we see the forest for the trees sometimes not. Klarer of our error, please sowas just briefly via email if you see something. 1000 could see more than 2 make the database and then simply valid. Is now corrected.
dv-HVX200 in the synonymous, incidentally, is not there, but at the ex. Even such a case, if something else synonymous. If I have understood correctly, the new HVX-200A no DV - In more (in inches reasons) but only the HVX201A. Exactly, the Panasonics Specs synonymous but not out, is only conjecture ne of us, the times we have to validate. . There must at times anyway, but an update of the new models only. We are just how we do it without the database überquillt (if two models only by dV in unterscheinden).
BTW. Has no Ex1 (h) DV-in? We have not tried. Who knows what?
Antwort von Bernd E.:
... Has no Ex1 (h) DV-in? ... Who knows what? I have the EX1 only briefly in his hand, but at least according to their technical specifications, it has this input.
Gruß Bernd E.
Antwort von camworks:
dv-HVX200 in the synonymous, incidentally, is not there, but at the ex.
Even such a case, if something else synonymous. If I have understood correctly, the new HVX-200A no DV - In more (in inches reasons) but only the HVX201A.
So I have a hvx200E and definitely has the factory-dv-in enabled. times when a newer HVX200 (I 200A, not 201) has escaped, you could cling to in writing, if the dv-in no longer has).
for The 201, I would always create a new profile, as this would certainly have been changed.
to write that the database is thus unclear, I find too easy. times about whether we needed as buyers are not synonymous such "marginal" differences between the HVX200 and 201 could be important.
Antwort von rudi:
for The 201, I would always create a new profile, as this would certainly have been changed. Let synonymous ...
to write that the database is thus unclear, I find too easy. times about whether we needed as buyers are not synonymous such "marginal" differences between the HVX200 and 201 could be important. We clearly synonymous, the old model will certainly not disappear. But perhaps there is another day, like "Current Model" or something. We discuss as yet.
Antwort von eva:
[quote = "rudi"]
BTW. Has no Ex1 (h) DV-in? We have not tried. Who knows what? No, no DV-in. No upscaling.
Why synonymous? This is a pure HD Camera, because it makes no sense to an SD signal via the composite connection (no S-video connection!) Einzuspeisen. The quality of the downscaling is incidentally not a hit ...
Gruss Eva
Antwort von camworks:
it is about in firewire (dv in and / or HDV in), not composite or SVideo.
Antwort von eva:
Last, I wanted to comment on the EX1 / 3 to hear. He said that they would go away like the warm rolls, would have little quirks, but it would still, in view of the price sensationell in this class. Can only agree.
My view of quirks:
1. Focus Issues
2. Lettering rubs from
3. Battery loses charge when in the Camera
These 3 Macken joined in new models (at least for the replacement camera, I received a few weeks ago) no longer occurs.
Other quirks:
4. Shot transition is not as soft as in cases of FX1/Z1. This is partly a mechanical problem, since the zoom of the outside via mechanical servo s.Zahnkranz moved. Problem with EX1 and EX3.
5. The switch: Are Friemel, not so doll, especially the one-off is terrible. The EX3 is no improvement.
6. Rolling Shutter: That is the way. For me, comparable, as if I am with my old Nikon F2 a flash sync with shutter speeds high want to make. That is not, unless I take a camera with central locking, such as Hasselblad ne. For me, this is not new. Incidentally, I know a lot of shots with slit-shutter SLRs, the "crooked" things show. So what.
7. High Compression. May, at certain things a problem. But has the advantage that I am not a fortune in SxS_Karten be stuck. A recent (rechenintensivenm) codec I would not be synonymous desirable, because then I NEN new calculator should buy. The MXF files are run with me in VEGAS 8 Super unnecessary, although I am not old "box" did.
8. Construction of the panel. When I unfolded panel NEN install windshields, I can no longer back panel folds.
9. The location of the connections (USB, Component, etc.). Also not nice way. but I almost never do, I can live with it.
Apart of the 9 (6) score, I am still totally happy with the device.
My favorite features:
* External power supply to 16 volts. Have at Conrad NEN suitable times can be bought and any external power supplies and battery connected. The Camera warns me when the battery is low. Is exact parameters.
* Over-Undercranking: Simply Super. The EX3 better solved.
* The Panel: So sharp that it is really useful. Sowas has nobody except SONY.
* The fast workflow: I do not need to spend hours on the PC Video Download. Really good.
Gruss Eva
Antwort von Bernd E.:
... no DV-in ... FBAS port ... These are but two completely different things! Since the EX1 manual operation of the DV input is described in great detail, do I continue to believe that the Camera one hand ;-)
Gruß Bernd E.
Antwort von eva:
it is about in firewire (dv in and / or HDV in), not composite or SVideo. Ahhh, sorry - Yes it works without problem (in HDV). The camera behaves here as my old Z1.
Gruss Eva
Antwort von Jogi:
s.slashcam to your ps:
if you already have a comparative test ex1/hvx200, then please wear it in the camcorder synonymous database of all available video resolutions of the HVX200 an AND not only 720er resolutions. me anyway your tests a bit strange. in the scene very excited discussed problems of ex1 (schärfe loss in connection with the ND filter, rolling-shutter effect and poor processing) will be with you does not even mention ... The problems involved in the first EX1sen there are still far from the world. You should inform yourself beforehand times before you here looking stale repeat!
Antwort von camworks:
do you feel the tie to be taken or what the ton?
The rolling shutter system is conditionally available. this is for me (because anyone can have a different opinion) the most important criterion ko.
the buyer group with the camera should be addressed?
I think a large part of the world's ex'es be sold s.videojournalisten, hochzeit film and people selling any of the events so that want to rotate. all these are target flashes (foto blitze) and in the vj's also synonymous times rotlicht / flashing lights of police and firefighters in their clips frequent. whether at a wedding or a pressconference, with lightning is always photographed.
I recently had the dubious pleasure of such material for a werbeclip viewing. the material was simply unusable: when fast movements were the objects moved in a flash light was a part of the image light beam, the other part in each of dark. a visual assault! we had to quickly substitute material.
Antwort von domain:
For single images, of an e-verhunzt Flash, it is already synonymous no preference whether the whole, half (with interlacing possibly synonymous already the case) or fourth picture is affected.
Antwort von camworks:
I do not. I want unverschämterweise namely, that when a video gets the visual as it was actually on site. and the man blitze can be seen, but no half / quarter / whatever bright pictures and the rest dark.
and the fact with the distorted objects at fast movements do not forget, as here synonymous with the HC1 to see:
RollingShutterEffektHC1.JPG_________________
ciao, Arndt.
DVD copy |
Mietstudio|
Camera Courses Edit from Mod: Too big picture is replaced by its link.
Antwort von Bernd E.:
... ... rolling shutter material was simply useless: at fast movements ... ... lights flashing at a visual assault ... In this context, I would be interested in times, if someone links to EX1 experience reports of "major consumers," such as CNN have? The news broadcaster has purchased these cameras and thus, inter alia, by the American struggle prefix length - and sometimes live - reported. Therefore, after a second question: If someone such Rolling Shutter Effects in CNN broadcasts noticed? Each flash herauszuschneiden probably even impossible, when live broadcasts anyway.
Gruß Bernd E.
Antwort von camworks:
I've been somewhere news material with the rolling shutter seen in photo flash. to have the tough so used. I mean, what does one big turn synonymous change? I am surprised only that the man sowas zumutet spectators.
Antwort von eva:
I've been somewhere news material with the rolling shutter seen in photo flash. to have the tough so used. I mean, what does one big turn synonymous change? I am surprised only that the man sowas zumutet spectators. For the times when messages have been created by film, there was however synonymous. The sector shutter is a mechanical analogy to the line by line reading of the chip. If it were just one (eletronischer) Flash at half-open aperture sector ignited, there was half a halt bright images. That's when film cameras simply can not be avoided. Only CCDs offer remedies.
Only at times, when flashed with Magnesiumbirnchen was the problem not so serious, since these bursts rather long periods of lightning had.
The problem is not specific to the EX1, but technologically through the use of CMOS chips conditionally. To that extent helps the whole nothing exciting, just a CCD offers relief.
Gruss Eva
Antwort von WoWu:
The statement is wrong!
CMOS sensors also can be read progressively. One has only to use such sensors and the two transistors and more spendier may not necessarily be the saving model.
Antwort von domain:
Global shutter in CMOS there longer, but the light quantum efficiency decreases while, at any rate according to my research but rather from.
The pixels in CMOS (rolling shutter) are currently an average of about 1.8 micrometers in size and need for global-shutter to amount to about 7, so they had the same sensitivity to light.
One can therefore ausrechen how large such sensors would be required to get the same intensity and reach Resolutionzu
Antwort von WoWu:
I do not know where the 1.8 comes Micoron because ClearVid are 2,04-2,06.
And in the present 1 / 2 "may be the 3.3 ¼. Why should the sensor over 3,500 pixels dissolve?
Even if one takes into account Alaising shall be 20% over a scanning s.um misinformation to achieve, which is certainly less than 10%.
But as always synonymous, such small pixel pitches of the diffraction effects are not beneficial in any case and any increase in the photosensitive area would benefit each parameter, not just the price.
The size increase in GS-sensors is, however, primarily through the application of the additional transistors conditionally.
The light sensitivity rather plays a secondary role, because the filling factor for larger sensor areas is higher of course, this small sensors can be strengthened later ...
The reduced light yield refers more to the ILTs and FITs and less on full-frame sensors selected.
And the size, where is the problem? :
13 mm, ie in the order of an inch.
Is there anything in large quantities and at halfway decent prices on several s.Markt. You must only use.
Understand, I can still miniaturization in the camcorder world, synonymous to cheap Lenses to be able ... expected here but not the decisive role,
Antwort von domain:
Kodak manufactures have smaller pixels to CMOS sensors, as the average of 1.8 at.
http://www.prophoto-online.de/photonachrichten/Kodak-with-ersten-High-Resolution- CMOS Imagesensor.html
My understanding would be the signal to noise ratio, so the noise at larger GS-sensors improve only when the comparatively actually photosensitive elements in each pixel would also be greater, but just not the case, because the larger number of elements lichtunempfindlichen now more place at the expense of light-sensitive position.
Furthermore, it should not simply be Einzollsensoren in the consumer sector construction, if only because the 1:10 a.m. to 1:20 zoom lenses with the required intensity almost prohibitively expensive and would be too large. Looking quite at the EX3.
Incidentally, apparently not all the expectations of CMOS was originally adopted in the magnitude can be achieved:
http://www.dalsa.com/markets/ccd_vs_cmos.asp
Antwort von WoWu:
Kodak manufactures have smaller pixels to CMOS sensors, as the average of 1.8 at. Then you have to be synonymous, but what to say: For
camera phones It is possible to always miniaturization .... Target but are then just the phones and less than HDTV application.
You should not fully merge branches, because everyone can figure out how the diffraction effects look like, because s.den physical properties of light change as you know nothing.
Unless you can operate or Pixelbinning but it just goes by multiples of the resolution by reducing the cushion Farbmaske.
Where but in the current video technology had not yet taken.
Depending on the manufacturer changes the surface of the photo electric sensors very well. In addition, the sensors in the aggregate in any lenses on virtually the entire mechanical surface so that the light yield analogous to the surface takes place. As such, it plays the actual sensitive area of the pixel only a minor role.
In addition, just such developments as the polarity reversal of the light output of other valuation subject.
I give you as absolutely right and proper Lenses are not as cheap as the 5mm Lenses of the camcorder ... just as the skewer rotates again, because a small and mostly miserable Lens synonymous requires only a tiny sensor ... and should come out yet 1920x1080.
.... almost prohibitively expensive and would be too large. Looking quite at the EX3. That takes so much Sonydafür is still no indication that the Lenses are so expensive.
Why should Lenses are so expensive?
It is synonymous always a question of quantity.
In the photograph, very good lens with excellent developments delivered MTF values whose type is only the video would have to customize.
Besides showing us that the synonymous Prices largely on the quantity to be determined.
And in the photograph is 7-fold larger surface area compared to the 1 "sensor operated .... So where is the problem since.
(I am not speaking of photo lenses to use, but video lenses for 1 "sensors built and reasonably priced prefer the photograph as an example only approached it in such developments, no new secrets are to fathom)
The DALSA article I already knew .... the there were already 2 years ago ... therefore questionable to what events the bases, especially DALSA largely synonymous industrial applications and makes up for its two flagships, which does not even include CMOS, no significant TV or Movies application offers. But of course they are the sensors, which you could use synonymous.
Nor can I change the "negative" Erwartenshaltung that you implizierst, it does not recognize. It is merely a comparison .... and, as I said, a few years old.
As for the future of CMOS is concerned .... currently, all camcorder applications on the use of CMOS and the resulting opportunities made available to it.
Also, the layer-oriented development in MPEG4 sets the pixel-oriented access provided.
But it's just a whole bouquet s.neuen features that allow all non-CCD and because the firms still compete, you still will have no choice than CMOS.
... It is just the question of whether the sensors Bonsai start, or sometime you to go on ordinary parts.
Let's wait times what the Scarlet because next year brings as synonymous in the lens development is not the last word spoken.
So I agree with your plea for the CCD only in a limited scope, but the part was best, 2 or 3 cycles of innovation.
Antwort von domain:
The micro lens technology is standard CMOS and CCD, may be useful for large-scale sensors to be problematic, if the optics are not used on a telecentric output feature. Otherwise, in the camera or in the subsequent image processing chain of complex Abschattungseffekte correction (shading correction) are carried out.
I'd be curious how the Scarlet and look what it would cost if they have a common area in the video zoom lens would, for example 1:1,9 with 15-fold zoom. The modest 8-times zoom with luminous 1:2,8 could indeed from the photo area and where the light intensity due to the flash not so decisive.
Incidentally, I think not a plea for CCD, I wonder just how the original arguments for CMOS have changed.
Mir is no preference whether the CMOS or a CCD camera is in, but GS-CMOS times would soon be due, I think, however, does not believe that there is only one factor is cost, which is currently for RS sensors speaks.
Antwort von WoWu:
I see that we are in our view, fairly close together.
What the Telecentric concerned, I see just in the orientation of the pixel CMOS the great advantage, because correction calculations, especially the vignetting wide belong to the standard calculation.
The telecentric Lenses were more in photography a few years ago announced that the sensors were larger, but still CCD 's were. Time, quite apart from that company anyway its lens developments in this direction and drive to a large extent already "almost telecentric" Lenses offer.
I wonder just how the original arguments for CMOS have changed. The entire processing camera has changed .... and ultimately of within 2 years. But just by lifting the limiting factor, only the entire picture to be able to process, such processes are also not reversible.
Fairly soon, we will ask ourselves how we (formerly) is able to work with CCD.
But I agree with you as agreed ... it is time to use synonymous GS. I'm fairly confident synonymous and truly hope that the consumption of sensors with 1 ".
Very much more you need not order the most well-known negative effects to be eliminated.
Unless the trend to 1 chip is next to continue ... would be synonymous 1 "is not really sufficient.
I believe that the development towards the CMOS already drastic but fear that, at least in the consumer price of the driving factor will be.
Only you can just as pauschel, as done above, the CMOS does not verteufeln and undifferentiated him with the RS equate .... because one has a closer look and say that the cameras Sonyin unfortunately committed a CMOS sensor with built-RS has, instead of a CMOS with GS to take.
Let's just what 2009 will bring for us.
Antwort von Jogi:
do you feel the tie to be taken or what the ton?
The rolling shutter system is conditionally available. this is for me (because anyone can have a different opinion) the most important criterion ko.
the buyer group with the camera should be addressed?
I think a large part of the world's ex'es be sold s.videojournalisten, hochzeit film and people selling any of the events so that want to rotate. all these are target flashes (foto blitze) and in the vj's also synonymous times rotlicht / flashing lights of police and firefighters in their clips frequent. whether at a wedding or a pressconference, with lightning is always photographed.
I recently had the dubious pleasure of such material for a werbeclip viewing. the material was simply unusable: when fast movements were the objects moved in a flash light was a part of the image light beam, the other part in each of dark. a visual assault! we had to quickly substitute material. Sorry, if this came across. But the discussions on the RS of the EX1 has long been debated. Now is the EX1 7 months on the market and 99% of the initial teething troubles are resolved. As far as I can to RS-Effect of EX1 as the owner of one of these cam say that I am a strong RS bobachtet never did. Also pictures from a helicopter out behaved perfectly normal synonymous such a rotor current show. Scenes, the influences of E-bolts have emerged in the running Picture no abnormalities. Of course, synonymous I know the recordings are still a few months ago in some forums to review has been submitted. As these recordings were, what settings are used, however, remained unclear. When I look at pictures of HDV CCD Cams anschauen under similar conditions were rotated, possibly lightning flash, then I am convinced that this clip shows look dreadful because verpixelt total.
I think that the EX1 is not susceptible to RS-effects than any other cam in RS CMOS chips are installed. Were it otherwise would have Sony Not every day, more than 100 of these cams produce.
Antwort von camworks:
ich hab ja synonymous not alleged that the ex1 for such problems was more susceptible than other cameras.
as I said, we recently had exactly such material with effects and I did get over the crisis gekriegt because we are on the fast substitute materials had to organize.
Antwort von WoWu:
ch think that the EX1 is not susceptible to RS-effects than any other cam in RS CMOS chips are installed. quite the contrary .... by the higher readout speed of the chip is already in effect to compensate for something .... that was previously in the "normal" cameras of course not the case ... only can the readout speed is not any upward.
The RS effect is nevertheless not be denied and in critical recordings, certainly synonymous an acceptance barrier. But not every recording is subject to the unfavorable conditions of RS and probably offers the Camera in the vast parts of the situations of very good pictures.
Only there is a whole number of other points that you verify with the EX3 was to remove them now almost a year was needed and the customer to Field Tester was.
Perhaps we should just those points in the EX3 once under the microscope, if the tests are synonymous only the hint of the name and value should not play immediately rather than singing the songs of joy. First nachschau'n ....
What struck me in these kinds of "tests" have always wonder is that the weaknesses always of the users are located.
You figure ....
Antwort von Jogi:
ch think that the EX1 is not susceptible to RS-effects than any other cam in RS CMOS chips are installed.
What struck me in these kinds of "tests" have always wonder is that the weaknesses always of the users are located.
You figure .... I see as synonymous. The test time seems never to reach. In the test laboratory, if it is because one is, the cam on a tripod and it will be some test charts food served in different lighting to be digested. Such a procedure can, of course, the normal recording situations never simulate. How can hardly be identified weaknesses and are not even that rarely and only under certain situations come to light. There remains only the cameraman / woman whom something will be conspicuous.
