Frage von andidhouse:
Hi, I'm just new here in the forum and did the same times, a question: According to the Germans, the Page Canon HF10 and HF100 camcorders record only 25p, the American version can, however, 24p and 30p! That would really have a striking argument to get the Cam from the U.S. to get it?
Greetings Andidhouse
Antwort von Schleichmichel:
Not in the slightest. At 24p you can with the tools 25p video clock down, and 30p, well, I do not synonymous ... What is so great that for you a "striking" argument is to stress the import with all its disadvantages aufzuhalsen warranty? Everything just because marginally different image frequencies?
Antwort von andidhouse:
Hi,
naja import stress, it is not really. I leave my cam of a friend and bring the for 700 $ plus import duty and I went around at 550 euro which is in contrast to the German price (around 850 euro) already is favorable. I have read some articles where 30p in contrast to 24/25 is just smooth. agrees about not?
Antwort von Zizi:
is so logical. building higher frequency = more frames per second, just 30 instead of 24th So everything is smoother.
Antwort von Schleichmichel:
Yes, it is already liquid. But with 30p (we used in NTSC waters move) so it has its problems, its own mess to s.Freunde others who have such an ancient tube device. Not that it did not go ... of course the synonymous NTSC, provided that the device is not too old.
But the 25i or even 24fps from the movies as a little redundant to have been described, we actually hear very rarely to never. And if they do, then I doubt whether 30p is so much better.
Antwort von Fitzcarraldo:
It is absolutely crucial, making the material we play.
25p - for me at any rate - so interesting when you have a clip on PC monitors of 75 or 100 Hz is playing, as this is a multiple of 25.
And 30p would be very interesting, since our LCD's mostly working with 60Hz (if at the LCD's important - but just think).
Adjust the refresh rate is not together, not so siehts halt unnecessary, because delayed images / be preferred.
24p is probably complete nonsense - suitable for idiots to communicate with your plants now so created in Hollywood to be KNOCKING ....
Antwort von andidhouse:
24p is not, of course, absolute nonsense! I think you should first inform before what you write here. new flat-screen TV support in part "only" 24p since the hollywood movies in more and more synonymous to be rotated (synonymous on blue ray then it is written). 24p is therefore absolutely no nonsense!
Antwort von WoWu:
... 24p is also the only format, from the man with the familiar tools and methods synonymous all other formats can generate.
If it is 1080p24 is what the technical data is not really showing. Anyway you'll come with an image sensor with 2 MillPix slowly anyway far below the full HD resolution.
So even the 1080 would leave plenty getürkt ...
Antwort von Zizi:
What that is, the HF series no 50i fields can absorb?
That is totally bad!
If that means sports or fast recording and filming for more than 5 minutes you get so committed before loudly bucking headaches!
If full then only 50p .. everything else is shit!
Antwort von Bernd E.:
What that is, the HF series no 50i fields can ... That is not totally bad ... No panic! Where you will always synonymous Info herhast, it is simply wrong: Of course, the European HF10 (0) synonymous record in 50i - the U.S. version in 60i logically.
Gruß Bernd E.
Antwort von Axel:
What that is, the HF series no 50i fields can absorb?
That is totally bad!
If that means sports or fast recording and filming for more than 5 minutes you get so committed before loudly bucking headaches!
If full then only 50p .. everything else is shit! Again and again the same lyre! How to make the difference between 25p and 50i recording of it?
Answer: The difference is really only see when you focus respects. Last Sunday even with two cameras, CRT and TFT in parallel and then to plasma and CRT TV via Component tested. And not only of me, but of three other like-minded people, all based on such things had claimed full and that they would be the difference "immediately" see. In both versions of the optimal shutter speed of 1/50tel (p) and 1/100tel (i) have no preference whether the device natively progressive or interlaced work, usually only differences to see if the picture stops. Even with an extremely quick movements (with the hands wave, fast wave), one needs a while to set the picture correctly interpret. The motion blur quickly when "p" - is clearly yes, twice as large motion blur. A football in the shot is still not visible (er) s tail behind him. Nevertheless - purely logical view, not the appearance of her - for most sports, "i" is more appropriate. But many sports movies ( "Goal", "Germany, a summer fairy tale") is not synonymous suffer under their blatant 24/25 images.
But pans, but they are shit in "p", right?
Absolutely. Just shit like a swing with the wrong tempo in "i". It is a myth that when a panoramic swivel interlace material does not distinguish between rain and eaves must decide. Rain = stuttering of vertical lines, compounded here by interlace artifacts. Eaves = smearing, too much blurring by motion blur.
Antwort von WoWu:
It has a very extensive investigation of the ZDF, which more than 3000 spectators and non-commercial 850 commercial audience with p and i have confronted material and in different viewing distances, the images had to be assessed.
Used different genres of moderation, .... to sport.
The result is astonishing: Consistently through all genres, including sports! have predominantly more than 70% better than the p signal evaluated.
Interlace was just in a genre synonymous and that only on large-screen projectors easy points: moderation.
The ZDF study was, moreover, of the University of Cologne.
So much just to believe, would not be visible interlace and especially sport would help ....
So we all wait to 50p and then possibly more in 1080 ... would have an endless discussion finally found an end.
Antwort von beiti:
So much just to believe, would not be visible interlace and especially sport would help .... That particular interlace better for sports that nobody claims - only that for the smaller sports 50i to 25p is evil. Much nicer would be 50p, which nobody denies synonymous.
Antwort von Axel:
So much just to believe, would not be visible interlace and especially sport would help .... That particular interlace better for sports that nobody claims - only that for the smaller sports 50i to 25p is evil. Much nicer would be 50p, which nobody denies synonymous. A practical example: A sports student asked me for a presentation, a table tennis match, in order to supplement the technology analysis. In 25 stages would move the ball a trajectory of + / - 2 frames had. The best would have been slow motion, and the needs of course as many phases as possible. And sharp single. A clear case (in the absence of an HVX) for 50i and short shutter time. For
documentation of movement is preferable 50i.
Antwort von WoWu:
The tests say otherwise synonymous nothing from ... There are certainly synonymous industrial applications where (i) is beneficial. For sports coverage it has in the assessment of subjects but does not fit as shown. Now, the synonymous ensure representative sports (without motion analysis) have shown.
But like I said ... with 50p, the spook will pass anyway.
Antwort von Zizi:
Better or not ..
If I were with my Canon HV30 with 25p movies, see just very jerky pans out!
After a long time to get even bedrachten eyes burn.
I knew from my own experience is not really what advantages I bring these 25 images. Yes that may be on pause when you tap the Picture as a Still Image is what I have them in the normal film?
What are good arguments for 25 frames?
I am no one.
Is not the examples page / see shows?
Antwort von Axel:
What are good arguments for 25 frames?
I am no one. That's okay. If you interlace images better, but still there. The difference is, as I said, not moving world. It is a question of what one might subjectively prefer. Not much more. A small drawback of "i" is that it is for a Webfilm or for an intelligent consideration s.einem computer deinterlace anyway, but these are just a few clicks.
Is not the examples page / see shows? You see everywhere examples of both. Movies such as using frames, broadcasts half.
There is many reasons why "p" Jerkiness pans (if):
s.kürzere shutter speed than 1/50tel, the most common cause, I would check.
b) the NLE can not handle it properly, or preferences are wrong. How to treat your NLE with AVCHD? Is there an intermediate for editing? Does the timeline setting for the transmission codec in "p"?
c) HD-DVD or BD player may be a need to
Firmware-Update, da sie i.d.R. nur für 24 B/s vorbereitet sind.
d) falsche Schwenk-Geschwindigkeit. Entsprechend des oben beschriebenen Dilemmas zwischen Stottern and Verschmieren gilt für "p", dass etwa um 30% langsamer gepannt oder getiltet (Panoramaschwenks) werden muss im Comparison zu "i", oder aber schneller (Reißschwenks).
Ruckeln wird es trotzdem leicht. Sieh dir Filme an. Good geschwenkt, aber du wirst es überall sehen. Das ist einer der Gründe, warum es in Kinofilmen so wenig leere Landschaften gibt, über die geruhsam geschwenkt wird. Eine löbliche Ausnahme:
Lawrence of Arabia. But look at what a majestic swing is! The camera weighed centners and not just a few grams ...
Antwort von peaceoli:
Hi, I would like to purchase a Canon HF 100. I have a HD Ready TV, 1920 x 1080 i dominated. If the canyon in 1920 x 1080 p Full HD to say? Please provide brief answers, since I already enjoy the highest resolution movies wants. Schönen Gruß Oliver
Antwort von WoWu:
No, not a consumer camera is currently at 1920x1080.
Antwort von DeeZiD:
If the HF10/HF100 not on 1920x1080?
The HV20/HV30 creates by limiting HDV yes "only" 1440x1080.
Gruß Dennis
Antwort von WoWu:
How will this work with the sensor?
Currently interpolate the cameras all perk up. But of course not a single picture and more detail is far away of that which the customer expects.
Always show on the image sensor, if you want to know what your camera can.
Antwort von Alan Smithee:
Currently interpolate the cameras all perk up.
Nope!
The interpolated HV20/HV30 of 1920x1080 on the chip to 1440x1080 HDV-compliant for the tape down.
Antwort von WoWu:
As we informed you once again correct.
The issue here is already often been mentioned that the search will best serve.
But actually this version is quite new, that of 1920x1080 interpolated down to 1440 .... super version!
Antwort von Bernd E.:
... actually this version is quite new, that of 1920x1080 interpolated down to 1440th ..
So new is synonymous in this forum do not, and was not even the official version of Canon? Whether it's because true is another question.
Gruß Bernd E.
Antwort von WoWu:
So for me it is an abstruse new version ... why should a laboriously-resolution picture (and this is in any relationship really expensive) behind on such a reduced format bonsai .... ?
Even the most inexperienced developers as would invade, but equally low dissolved ....
But as always synonymous, from 2 million pixels will be 1920x1080 no time you can rotate and turn as you want .... even in 1440 must be highly interpolated, since this is not enough times ...
And do you have in your life ever seen an advertising department, which the truth has committed?
Antwort von peaceoli:
I will arrange the Cam today. ever grateful for the help. Schönen Gruß Oliver
Antwort von Schleichmichel:
... why should a laboriously-resolution picture (and this is in any relationship really expensive) behind on such a reduced format bonsai .... ?
For example, to pseudo-modulation at high spatial frequencies (and thus Alias | Wavefront Maya) prevent. Of course, only if good runterskaliert "would". It is so synonymous in the film scanning only with an over sampling wiklich good quality synonymous blessed and for this reason is used for audio signals up to 20KHz anyway sampled with 44.1 KHz. But you can on other issues synonymous head breakage, especially in this price segment.
How-to-be-synonymous. Better so, than the other way.
Antwort von Alan Smithee:
As we informed you once again correct.
The issue here is already often been mentioned that the search will best serve.
But actually this version is quite new, that of 1920x1080 interpolated down to 1440 .... super version!
Writing Tip: Canon HV20 Manual, you can do yourself
Antwort von Alan Smithee:
... why should a laboriously-resolution picture (and this is in any relationship really expensive) behind on such a reduced format bonsai .... ?
Perhaps the sensor is not so expensive. Moreover, I have a format that is 3 / 4 of the known as FullHD designated Resolutionhat, not as a "bonsai format described. That's the 3.75-fold of SD.
Antwort von WoWu:
Thanks for the references ... everything known.
Also, the theoretical consideration regarding the Alias | Wavefront Mayavorbeugung ...
Lt. canon camcorder, the sensor resolution 2.07 Mpix.
These are converted to the horizontal at 2 = 1632 Pixel Mill.
RGB primary filter mask approximately -35% = 1060
Relevant pixel resolution that is approx. 30-45% vertically because things are still synonymous.
There is nothing more than backward interpolation with HDV by 2 to achieve quite the contrary, and certainly nothing to prevent Alaising to meet, because that would be in a Lens, which is already 250 Lp / mm for the 1920 resolution would bring mean that the sensor is still significantly higher than would have. Usually one calls for 20% marginal, so that the misinformation under 10%.
Can now but surely everyone out, as one 1 / 3 "sensor with a horizontal line of 4.8 mm looks.
And because we are on the dimensions are .... but expects times the pixel-pitch for such a sensor with 1920 ... and then calculate out the wavelength of green on the other hand, where your focus will remain. Or does the Camera Apertures no more?
And for those who always like to bring photography into the game .... drop on the sensor size .... and then calculate again.
If the video technology would have a similar framework as the photography, would have to buy their advertising departments do not be fooled .... then we would have synonymous genuine 2k resolution ..... We have not, as long as the bonsai sensors in the cameras are installed.
Antwort von WoWu:
@ Alan Smithee
Moreover, I have a format that is 3 / 4 of the known as FullHD designated Resolutionhat, not as a "bonsai format described.
... I would perhaps not synonymous, even though 3 / 4 "synonymous not yet the world is.
Unfortunately, because you've read something wrong .... because the cameras have unfortunately only 1 / 3, 2 ", less than 1 / 3".
I know of only a few cameras that still have small sensors and the problem is well known.
3.75-fold of SD
I unfortunately do not understand?
Antwort von Bernd E.:
3.75-fold of SD I unfortunately do not understand?
SD PAL: 720x576 = 414720
HDV: 1440x1080 = 1 555 200
So mathematically considered: SD x 3,75 = HDV
Gruß Bernd E.
Antwort von WoWu:
Thanks Bernd,
Now I know what he thinks. But I thought we talk about picture resolution and there are now once sensor (s), Lens, and Farbmasken it.
Lastly was the question of whether it currently has one at CC s.Markt there, the native 1920x1080, so synonymous shows the amount of detail.
Inter polishing everything I can to ... but that's not so.
But I can see straight, then I was with the 3 / 4 differently somehow synonymous ... 'Guilty
Antwort von Alan Smithee:
Lt. canon camcorder, the sensor resolution 2.07 Mpix.
These are converted to the horizontal at 2 = 1632 Pixel Mill.
The manual says:
"Image Sensor 1 / 2 ,7-inch CMOS, approximately 2,960,000 pixels" and
"Effective Number of Pixels: Movies (16:9): about 2,070,000"
1920 x 1080 = 2073600 which is with the manual stating covers ( "about"). If the sensor, the Bayer pattern to RGB is used, then you need only one row and one column more pixels.
Furthermore, I can not understand how you come to the following statement:
Can now but surely everyone out, as one 1 / 3 "sensor with a horizontal line of 4.8 mm looks.
The sensor seems to be an aspect ratio of 3:4 to have. On this presumption to get due to the different focal length equivalents in the different modes (see my contribution synonymous (the seventh) in the thread
Antwort von Bernd E.:
... Sensor has a diagonal of 1 / 2, 7 inches, which corresponds to approximately 0.94 cm ...
The Inch-indication sensors is not with the usual 2.54 cm equal to a 1 / 2 ,7-inch sensor has a diagonal of 0.672 cm.
Gruß Bernd E.
Antwort von Alan Smithee:
... Sensor has a diagonal of 1 / 2, 7 inches, which corresponds to approximately 0.94 cm ...
The Inch-indication sensors is not with the usual 2.54 cm equal to a 1 / 2 ,7-inch sensor has a diagonal of 0.672 cm.
What is the reason? Why should an inch in sensors only 1.8144 cm?
Antwort von Bernd E.:
... What is the reason? ...
This has historical reasons and goes back to the time of the tube cameras - you can find it in detail here:
www.dpreview.com/learn/?/Glossary/Camera_System/sensor_sizes_01.htm
The examples there are digital cameras, the principle is the same but with camcorders.
Gruß Bernd E.
Antwort von Alan Smithee:
Bernd @ E:
Thanks for the info!
OK, then we come to 0.504 cm for the horizontal pixels.
It amazes me that the camera manufacturer is not yet in the U.S. in basic soil and were sued.
Antwort von Alan Smithee:
Oh yes, at times even to the origin of the pixel Talk back
I see no reason yet why the sensor in the HV20 / HV30 no 1920 x 1080 pixels should supply - because it dealt so high or Runterkonvertieren.
Optics that the limiting element in the sharpness of performance might be is another matter.
Antwort von WoWu:
Somehow, we are talking about different cameras? (HF / HR)?
Canon HF10 according CMOS 1 / 3, 2 "
http://www.canon.de/For_Home/Product_Finder/Camcorders/High_Definition_HD/HF10/index.asp?specs=1
HF 100 lt Canon CMOS 1 / 3, 2 "
http://www.canon.de/For_Home/Product_Finder/Camcorders/High_Definition_HD/HF100/index.asp?specs=1
1 / 3 "has a diagonal of 6mm (4.8 x3, 6mm)
I see no reason yet why the sensor in the HV20 / HV30 no 1920 x 1080 pixels should supply
See calculation above ..... the cameras can not do 1920x1080 without interpolation deliver!
There is, moreover, neither the Nyquist theorem incorporates still very dependent insertions of Schlechmichel ... because these would be and a few other issues also are taken into account, would be the next pixel ratio to deteriorate.
Optics that the limiting element in the sharpness of performance might be is another matter.
Just do not!. If optics is the limiting factor, because the image sensor is always! on the performance of Optics vote because the entire transfer contrast (from Lens and semiconductor sensor) is composed of the product of the two contrast transfer functions.
Schleich @ Michel ...
synonymous for this reason is used for audio signals up to 20KHz anyway sampled with 44.1 KHz.
I wish we had something like a low pass in the audio area synonymous with video, both for the optics, as synonymous to the image sensor, the contrast transfer my abruptly at the maximum line pair number can be reduced to zero.
So it can happen so synonymous that good optics with high contrast may be rated worse than a less Optics with good contrast levels.
Antwort von Alan Smithee:
Somehow, we are talking about different cameras? (HF / HR)?
Yes, in some things seem HFs (sensor size, lens) to be somewhat smaller than in the AGMs.
Still remains unclear to me what a sensor pixels to be different than just a light-sensitive element on the sensor and the number of photosensitive elements on a sensor can clearly count. That after the reading of the sensor in the calculation of a pixel information of several sensor pixels are introduced should be obvious.
My remark that "the optics, the limiting element in the sharpness of performance might be, is a completely different question." does not relate to the fact that the optics on the sensor needs to be tuned, but that it is a different question is quite specific to the sensor characteristics are introduced.
Antwort von WoWu:
Hello ..
only the bottom line remains that the industry, despite ever-smaller sensors 1920x1080 offer the customer, knowing that the Consument believes he get this Resolutionnativ delivered.
And that's just wrong, because with the simple counting of the pixels, it is not done.
When I 3, or 4 pixels per detail projected spending must be reduced very fact my native Resolutionum 75% ... and to just come along with a whole range of other mitigating elements.
So let's hope together that the industrial future widening sensors back picks, with reasonable pixel pitch and a reasonable Processing .... then we finally get to see HDTV and not only the 'polished version.
With "Bonsai" Incidentally, I had the sensor size, not the format - just to clarify misunderstandings ...
Regarding the dependence Optics is already there .... Optics if I need the 250 lp / mm dissolves and I do not (at the price) can build, I need not be synonymous sensor .... there are 2 problems solved at the same time (and cheaper at the expense of resolution).
Antwort von hoert:
HI,
again back to the actual topic:
I have already HF100 worried.
My Television (Toshiba 47z3030) natively supports 24p and synonymous 100Hz.
So, the question for me what setting in conjunction with my LCD is the best? (25p / 50i)
Antwort von my_joe:
Hab mir synonymous bought an HF10,
my LCD supports synonymous "only" 24p. Like apparently every LCD on the market! Since the camera so the 25p recording mode and the LCD can only 24p then turns the LCD into the auto mode, 50i, so the Halbbildmodus! I s.zwei different LCDs tested.
That means for me, the camera can never be directly connected s.den television and in 24p mode, or full-screen mode, to be viewed. Or have I got this completely wrong?
Conversely, if I said with the HF10, I must first begin with an appropriate software to download contacts 24p. Then I can only at a Television fullscreen mode. If the household then yes totally unsuitable. Fast times and record the same view then it is not possible.
Please bescheid something important if I have overlooked.
Greeting
Antwort von jakson1958:
Hab mir synonymous bought a HF10 ...
Hello!
Are you with your Canon HF 10 satisfied and you can recommend?
I intend to buy a too synonymous.
Many greetings
jakson
Antwort von Daigoro:
Conversely, if I said with the HF10, I must first begin with an appropriate software to download contacts 24p. Then I can only at a Television fullscreen mode. If the household then yes totally unsuitable. Fast times and record the same view then it is not possible.
Please bescheid something important if I have overlooked.
Greeting
Why you running with three of the church to the village?
If your television supports 50i on 50i you take.
The 24p, there's not so consumer cameras' filmmässig 'record, but because Hollywood is filming in 24p and thus the native refresh rate to be burned BluRay.
And the 25p camera you take when you are in what's internet Upload want - then you save the Deinterlace ever.
The video player auf'm computer isses no preference whether the material in 24p, 25p, 50p or 60p is - hauptsache p because i ne television and first thing is expensive and ugly to be deinterlaced.
Antwort von wolfgang:
True, but why should only 25p for the internet good? Is synonymous other applications.
My_joe has already - you can be so easily with appropriate Schnitprogrammen make 24p, and then on the BD-R to 1080 24p burn. Would be synonymous for the Blu Ray presentation conceivable halt with all its advantages and disadvantages of the 24p so in itself, from devices like the HF100 Coming.
Antwort von Daigoro:
True, but why should only 25p for the internet good? Is synonymous other applications.
Do not say 'only'.
But for the progressive representation s.PC has clear advantages (especially if you want to post garkeine has) and the frame rate there is actually almost no preference (at least relative cost / outcome).
