Frage von cammelcorder:
You read here of a seemingly desperate, but kaufentschlossenen Filmer. It's all about HD, I want my VX-9000, finally decommission and buy me again after ten years synonymous professional cutting system. My budget for both is 20,000 euros, and it is fitted for corporate films and documentaries (yes, synonymous) for weddings. It should, however, synonymous provide a quality that I can show up with the final product at ARD / ZDF and there would be taken seriously - I have my own ambitions.
When cutting machine with a Final Cut Studio on Mac envisions. This should come with accessories Behringer Micro Direct, tripod and light and last but not least a chance to play the final product so that I can present it at a transmitter (side question: What do I take s.besten there?).
Now I stand at the first decision, namely the camera I buy. The following is currently in the narrower choice (I am open to suggestions):
- SonyEX3 with DOF adapter. The suits me but very bitter on the tongue (my opinion) because it works with pixel shift, and therefore not really a full-HD cam is. Moreover, it is just Sony, and who Sonyhatte schonmal, know that you paid a lot as synonymous for the brand and otherwise being cut back.
- Panasonic AG-HPX301 (here I can probably dispense with the DOF adapter, which creates the Cam with proper lighting so as synonymous). My opinion: While here I've no autofocus, but you need the professional at all at work? Am I to SVHS times on the big Schultercams synonymous not missed. Here, the format attracts me in particular, diversity and AVC-Intra (so I still have to go down well with the broadcasters). And the most important thing for me: No pixel shift! Synonymous but have heard that the lens is grottenschlecht and good for the overall package of the action more for semi-Filmer.
May be synonymous, that I am completely on the wrong track. But that's why I ask you, yes ...
Thanks in advance for the answers.
Antwort von domain:
Both cameras are working with full HD 1920 * 1080. Sensors So what is the difference besides that, the EX3 uses a 1 / 2 "sensor, and the HPX301 only a 1 / 3" sensor.
If you think so s.DOF-effects, it would probably be the EX3 (possibly synonymous with no DOF adapter) the better choice.
Antwort von deti:
May be synonymous, that I am completely on the wrong track. Quite. If you seriously before you were in this price range to make purchases, then you should own the technical data of the required hardware by looking directly in the product of the Manufacturer very closely. To throw some unsubstantiated crap in the round and ask people for their petty thoughts, pure brings nothing.
My insignificant opinion: From the haptics or the form factor here is the HPX301E better because it fits well on the shoulder, but is there currently a problem that could be described as a series of errors (more here) http://forum.slashcam.de/1-vt75673.html. I would take as a result of lower costs, and the optical quality of the EX3.
Here, for slashCAM-Comparison http://www.camcorder-test.com/camcorder-5fe629533e7f9b7cddc28baf8656c9b8.html
Sheet AG-HPX301E: http://www.panasonic-broadcast.com/cms_downloads/en/products/AG-HPX301E_Brochure.pdf
PMW-EX3 Datasheet: http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/product-PMWEX3/
Deti
Antwort von WoWu:
@ Cammelcorder
If you want to get rid of the material with good TV companies to write the technical guidelines clearly states that it (except for certain exceptions, no 4:2:0 material) be allowed. For the EX3 has already ruled out.
Regarding the thread on the HPX, the "problem found" instead of at the highest level, namely, a focus range that the EX3 because of the lower sample rate in their A / D converter transmits apparently not even see.
Regarding the depth of field, so you will see no difference between the cameras, especially since the HPX has a 16:9 sensor, while the EX has a 4:3 sensor. Even the fact there are differences with the simple size comparisons are no longer covered.
What concerns the signal processing so stout an I-frame only just an I-frame only and is in conjunction with the specified color at a lot of good to edit accordingly.
A few (quite) there are advantages in the codec, but I give here.
Of the 10-bit format of the HPX You will probably only benefit if you are working in the infrastructure synonymous with 10-bit. (better gray scale, and much better color resolution) .. merely as slogans.
Antwort von deti:
... while the EX has a 4:3 sensor. How did you get this information?
Deti
Antwort von WoWu:
The Exmor derived, as far as I know, the chip series IMX0xxnn.
Has only just got a pretty marketingträchtigeren name.
But they are all 4:3 designs.
But if you have there other information?
Antwort von deti:
The Exmor derived, as far as I know, the chip series IMX0xxnn.
Has only just got a pretty marketingträchtigeren name.
But they are all 4:3 designs.
But if you have there other information? We have somewhere a Service Manual or similar lying around - where the sensor is in there - as far as I can remember, this is not IMX0 * - are not originally sensors for digital still cameras of Sony?
It would surprise me greatly if cameras would be installed in current or 4:3-sensors - but the burden of a high quality of Anamorphic Optics were not responsible.
Deti
Antwort von WoWu:
The expense is not covered, it's simply because a 16:9 windowing is done.
And in most cameras today are still sitting 4-3 designs.
And that sensors are installed in Stillimage-and video cameras is so common.
Reports of the sensors can be ordered here:
http://www.chipworks.com/seamark.aspx?sm=s4% 3BDatedfl10% 3BDeviceType17% 3BCMOS + Image + Sensorfl10% 3BReportCode12% 3BIPR-0902-801 & cw = detail
Details are shown in the reports.
Therefore, I consider myself first time s.solche information unless it except speculation (or marketing Gesülze) are no better information.
But if you somehow s.andere, better information coming ... happy!
I can only convey my stand ...
You know, after Karl Popper, each has only conjecture dependencies. :-)
Antwort von deti:
Now you've caused me to rummage through our servers to the Service Manual for:
The individual sensor is a IMX015, but it can only be as a 3-module, replaced as shown here:
Antwort von ruessel:
Here are a few more details: http://forum.fotografovani.cz/read.php?98, 3060616.3060616, report = 1
Antwort von cammelcorder:
If you want to get rid of the material with good TV companies to write the technical guidelines clearly states that it (except for certain exceptions, no 4:2:0 material) be allowed. For the EX3 has already ruled out. Exactly this sort of advice I need. That the Panasonic 301, creates, I know. The question is whether it is good otherwise synonymous.
And s.eine integrated 10-bit operation, I've been thinking. I'll probably with one MacPro and Final Cut Studio unravel ... I'm just worried about my budget :-)
Antwort von deti:
I'm just worried about my budget :-) That was basically my argument for Sonyim terms of your claim "only" invest to ¬ 20k. What 4:2:2 is concerned, you have to at 100Mbit / s, ie, 12.5 Mbytes / s set. Ie 16Gbyte P2 cards are just enough time for good 20 minutes. In the other modes, the Panasonic camera uses 50Mbit / s.
Of course, the SxS cards in Sonysynonymous are not exactly cheap, but there will surely only be recorded with 35MBits / sec.
It is adjacent to the entire technology synonymous halt an economic question. Need even more accessories - such as Batteries, head lights, radio channels, etc.? When will the costs be amortized?
PS: That the public transportation system agrees to accept in some cases only 4:2:2, but that does not mean that we should turn in 4:2:0. Rein is morally reprehensible, of course, but technically, I can transfer a interpolating format to a lesser extent interpolating format - which is synonymous made in many places. The quality of this course is not better. How material is the EX3 well as broadcast.
Deti
Antwort von WoWu:
I can only advise them to lie to respect editors and broadcasters.
A single rejection for this reason, cost you your reputation.
This is more expensive, so a cheap camera system and saved a few euros s.der smart card.
So you would like the question .. "with which the camera is included .." ? Reply
Also, if you make documentaries (like us), do you have in general no need s.stundenlangen records.
If you want to create and deliver professional material, do it professionally and do not try to save a few euros.
Remember, a rejected production makes, not the requirements corresponding to the system more expensive system, synonymous when it has looked superficially cheaper.
Deti Sorry, but this is utter rubbish!
technically I can transfer a interpolating format to a lesser extent interpolating Format
Antwort von deti:
Deti Sorry, but this is utter rubbish!
technically I can transfer a interpolating format to a lesser extent interpolating Format I've talked about the format, not of algebraically correct data!
WoWu, synonymous, I only speak from experience, what we get in the public transportation system so s.Material offered. This is often not the yellow of an egg and it will be removed anyway. I want to encourage synonymous NOBODY make such a bullshit.
Deti
Antwort von Bernd E.:
... can only advise them to lie to respect editors and broadcasters to ... Since you will need to lie not so much because the EX1, for example - in these technical details are identical with the EX3 - is used, inter alia, of production on behalf of ZDF, WDR, NDR and ORF. The fear of contact with XDCAM EX seem to think so well within bounds.
Antwort von soahC:
I just cut this week, an image of the film with the EX3 has been rotated and the material was simply PHENOMENAL! I have had such a good material for cutting rare, and rarer still do we see such a quality on TV! So really, the material delivered is still haunted by so many instances until it reaches customers, as is anything left of the once higher color resolution. Already own Kompresiionen in the digital cable or satellite show that more than clear.
An editorial in the material such as I cut it last week to say "No" would, just because it is technically inferior material is, I would simply refer to only as stupid ...
Antwort von WoWu:
@ Bernd
That may well be true for NEWS or inserts.
If one but from all the productions, as we do, it always goes through the technical inspection along the existing guidelines.
This is in our daily procedures.
We supply about 60 institutions. Very many of them still analogue, where the issue really plays no role. Yet they persist, often without really knowing why, to comply with the specs.
With these limitations in the digital stations are absolutely justified. Anyone who has ever led voraugen the consequences will come to no other conclusion.
The man who has not done this (will be alright), it will at least learn if his tape has been removed from the broadcast cycle, and with the band "locked" s.ihn back has been sent.
Then he can probably look not so much about the couple of euros saved.
And Deti, no preference, as it is called, is meant to sell a 4:2:0 to 4:2:2 format as. Lawyers would call it fraud.
One should therefore look exactly once in the license agreements. For there is in there, without exception, that is a contribution to add in accordance with the applicable technical requirements. So synonymous, if not explicitly asked for it and perhaps synonymous anyone tell straight away it is fraud.
Highly recommended :-(
And no preference whether you are putting in your size, the second (2) or not, it changes nothing s.Fehlen the corresponding color information.
For 4:2:0 and 4:2:2 not a question of computational tricks, but a question of color is
detail-Informaton. @ soahC
What do you think like your 4:2:0 material looks when it further interpolation in the encoder is transmitting?
It is a mistaken view that good material on the road to deteriorate to the customer, bad material, but will remain as it is.
Antwort von soahC:
Of course, worsened the EX3 synonymous material. The point I am making is that NO ONE will notice a difference. NO HUMAN will say, or to identify synonymous only to what kind of material is involved. As I'm sure about 99%.
And if you go out of this THEORETICAL reason to reject the material, then I know not synonymous more ...
By the way, what channel we are talking about, then? Please call me once a station on materials of the "technically higher" than the EX3 Cams sends. What is really ridiculous because some runs ...
Antwort von domain:
Regarding the depth of field, so you will see no difference between the cameras, especially since the HPX has a 16:9 sensor, while the EX has a 4:3 sensor. Even the fact there are differences with the simple size comparisons are no longer covered.
So the sensor must be EX3 already significantly larger than the HPX, it shows the basic data used s.den Lenses. The EX3 will start with up to 5.8 mm * 14 = 81.2 mm and 4.5 mm with the HPX to * 17 = 76.5 mm.
Converted to 17-fold, the EX1 would have a focal length range comparable picture angles of 5.8 to 98.6 mm.
This of course is somewhat different aspects for a better DOF synonymous when the real telephoto range is not as strong as for the HPX.
Antwort von deti:
Highly recommended :-(
And no preference whether you are putting in your size, the second (2) or not, it changes nothing s.Fehlen the corresponding color information.
For 4:2:0 and 4:2:2 not a question of computational tricks, but a question of color is detail-Informaton.
@ WoWu:
- I sit on the other, Page and I advise anyone to 4:2:0 than 4:2:2 material to sell, I simply said that it is often made - often simply because the workflow is s.anderer body it provides!
- I have never been synonymous claimed that technically anything through the conversion of 4:2:0 to 4:2:2 s.den changing characteristics of the starting material. It behaves exactly the same with the upscaling of SD content to HD. This is not an effective results-HD resolution, but an HD format!
What is really ridiculous because some runs ... There you have, unfortunately, right. Current is unfortunately still the majority DVCPRO / DigiBeta, although sometimes with HD cameras will be filmed.
Deti
Antwort von WoWu:
@ soahC
Since you need only to decrease the technical provisions of the channel to be seen.
And as to the effects:
In 4:2:0 arise from 4-color interpolation. Of red and green create yellow because of me or something.
If, in Sendeencoder now re-encodes to 4:2:0 arises from yellow and another interpolation, perhaps blue, magenta.
From your original colors, therefore remains not very much.
Pig-Rosa as skin color and bizarre color edges are the lousy results. And do not worry, it shows.
But as I said, it is up to each left to themselves, whether he considers s.seine contractual obligations or not.
We at least give the BBC as any (cut) material which does not meet the conditions s.and let it fall.
This works and does not lead to complaints.
And when it is noted that the original material is 4:2:0 and the channel it still buys (perhaps because the contents are particularly important or good), then everything's okay.
But knowing I would not take such a risk. And as a newcomer to the profession even less. since it is outside faster than we got in is.
And, soahC if you say you can not see, it may be true for you, but then you have not yet had to deal with technical acceptance in good broadcasters.
During Open Channel provides probably the ninth ... And even if, but try it once with FOX or the BBC and NHK and Canal + in France.
Antwort von soahC:
Okay, another question: Who of the people here produced or sold for s.FOX or the BBC and NHK and Canal + in France?
I also work daily on average, a big German TV station. And something like the EX3 stuff is hardly as delivered
Antwort von WoWu:
So the sensor must be EX3 already significantly larger than the HPX, it shows the basic data used s.den Lenses. The EX3 will start with up to 5.8 mm * 14 = 81.2 mm and 4.5 mm with the HPX to * 17 = 76.5 mm.
Converted to 17-fold, the EX1 would have a focal length range comparable picture angles of 5.8 to 98.6 mm.
This of course is somewhat different aspects for a better DOF synonymous when the real telephoto range is not as strong as for the HPX. You see, domain, and just give a wonderful result of the different types namely, not expected, because the focal follows with a 16:9 shape an entirely different value, with identical image window.
Also, only the pixel size is crucial to the blur circle, of which the DoF depends decisively.
Antwort von WoWu:
@ soahC
Who of the people here produced or sold for s.FOX or the BBC and NHK and Canal + in France? I
-----------------------------
Counter-question: who deceives his station, as he delivers material in breach of contract that has been proven does not meet the technical requirements?
What do you think how many people sign out?
soahC, here you are trying to slip into polemic too.
Perhaps you lack the substantive arguments?
Antwort von soahC:
I have no idea how many people with their material station cheat. It interests me honestly do not synonymous. I do not synonymous and in my job with little rolling of material, I will cut in on-air promotion and bin trailer.
What I can tell you is that the material I've cut this week, great (it looked very good, of course synonymous rotated) and that they could handle it wonderful + degrees. What I, as editor, with a now-but rather synonymous trained eye can say is that this material was better than 90% of what I can see it every day on television. Point. I did not want more. Testify
To the point with the editors of such material does not take: Perhaps you should confine yourself to the greater choice of content, editing and dramatic than on technical details
Antwort von WoWu:
@ soahC
That's true, but this can be synonymous, in accordance with the technical requirements, ie, in the contractually agreed quality.
Then is synonymous with good products therefrom, which is technically synonymous holds few surprises.
And that's why it was so in this thread.
I have the asker just the technical specifications of the transmitter put "her heart" to give him a decision-making.
The thread starter must then have come arguments like "but a note of None" or "Gaukel but the correct format," self-evaluate.
If he contracts with broadcasters want to get into the business-and he has indicated, I would give him at least the well-intentioned advice not to start.
Antwort von soahC:
As I said, I know films are not synonymous, and even the specifications of the transmitter does not. I totally do you think that this must be respected. I wonder how useful it is only then they are synonymous or why we still see so often inferior productions on TV.
Here are some pictures of the times EX3:
- Based on HD 1920x1080
- Unedited, no color grading
- The finished film has about 10 minutes
- The stills taken from a 300MB H.264 Quicktime to PAL Resolutionund were saved as JPEG straight 2x
Antwort von WoWu:
@ soahC
No question, the original shots look pretty good.
The danger lies in the Kaskdierung of subsampling and is, strictly speaking, only see the customer, because of these technical changes only mitbekommt. (Or, in the playout-but then it is) is usually too late.
Short graphic, like a chain would look 4:2:0 => 4:2:2 => 4:2:0, including the color balance in the interpolation.
Now there is in the normal picture only rarely, such Farbgegensätze. The graph also shows only the principle, synonymous, but the danger lies in it. The effect is noticeable only s.den edges.
Antwort von soahC:
Sure, I have chewed during my studies synonymous everything, and you've got quite synonymous with it. Both with the Farbsampling as synonymous with the acceptance conditions to be complied with. I would not recommend his material synonymous spend artificially 4:2:2.
But like I said, the shots of the EX3 are already fairly heavily compressed and runterskaliert, and still look very good. In other words, I would send it:)
Antwort von WoWu:
:-) Well, that would do other synonymous safe here, but that is precisely the problem.
For example, a pay TV provider has
BatMan views aired in the cinema equalization (gamma)) (contrary to the recommendation of the technical inspection, just because a Heini from the program, the department was well. Within 30 minutes the cue in the call center was filled with 250,000 calls, which complained about the "gray sauce."
You see, it can be fooled, unless you have the entire way in the eye and accepting the way it looks s.NLE, or, as it supposedly is good, it is synonymous to see the customer.
Antwort von B.V.S:
As I said, I know films are not synonymous, and even the specifications of the transmitter does not. I totally do you think that this must be respected. I wonder how useful it is only then they are synonymous or why we still see so often inferior productions on TV.
I think it always comes out s.was synonymous Productionwise goes.
As will be shown for images. Some productions synonymous only work with small cams or at least less complicated.
In Africa, I have my habit to use only small cams is easy and cheap discreet when one views the Cam is removed.
I even had time almost happened in Morocco: "Driver runs over nails exterior inspection of all get out, I am running with camera out ..." I could not because police still Garad convince it that so successfully if he gets the tape.
This has been a Travel Channel Production 5teiler used per 45 minutes, as it was: SonyHVR-HD1000E, LEGRIA RF Canon S100, flip MinoHD, Elmo SUV Cam. Go, then some small stations.
And even when I already have material of ZDF na Aiptek AHD200 seen, however, embedded in professional equipment.
Antwort von WoWu:
Completely true.
If the material is irreplaceable because of his authenticity is being sent everything. 4:2:2 is not a dogma. We cut synonymous 4:2:0 material one, because sometimes got nothing else. We point out in the papers and there were never any trouble. But it was merely synonymous only an insert and not a whole production.
Only I had not provided a 4:2:0 output, synonymous if the transfer format such as DVCProHD is as 4:2:2.
Small channels is often really a damn, that's true. Only synonymous since there is just no reason to conceal the format.
Antwort von cammelcorder:
Okay, another question: Who of the people here produced or sold for s.FOX or the BBC and NHK and Canal + in France?
I also work daily on average, a big German TV station. And something like the EX3 stuff is hardly as delivered Okay, soahC, I have decided now to let the fingers of the EX3 to. But with the Pana 301, I'm doing well advised? As you would with counsel for the see spending ¬ 20,000 (my question) the very top? I think if you (at least one transmitter in the Trailerprod. Are, Oeffi or are not they?), Can I ask you the time ...
The same question of course is synonymous s.Wolfgang, which has indeed become synonymous outed provide s.Sender too. But I was referring in particular to ÖR, with 3sat and Phoenix.
Antwort von B.DeKid:
Oh how sweet - the Deti feels ignored ;-))
Here he has provided really good arguments.
...........................
I can only say 4:2:2 bring only when GreenBox Footage .... when everything else is almost irrelevant!
............................
For 20 K
2 x EX1 (WW adapter plus a good nen Letus Extreme 35 Goats adapter) 1x iMac with Final Cut Pro and buy from the rest stop further tripods or light box.
What more do you need ..... when it is removed anyway.
But Machst studio stuff so what better then green screen with 4:2:2 and hardware customized keyer.
MfG
B. DeKid
Antwort von gammanagel:
Hello,
You can sell it with the VX 2000 Material s.ZDF and ARD, so DV to 4:2:0
that would be 'ne alternative because EX-3 spends s.SDI output 4:2:2:
http://www.convergent-design.com/CD_Products_nanoFlash.htmhttp://forums.creativecow.net/thread/142/865938#865981 mfg
Elimar
Antwort von Axel:
... that would be 'ne alternative because EX-3 spends s.SDI output 4:2:2 ... Oh yeah, and it is
HD-SDI. In a
cinematographer Michael Ballhaus was an article on "film" In Berlin ", synonymous as far as I know a TV co-production. Which are then said to have determined the decline: "Well, quite nice, Micah, but unfortunately, 4:2:0, so go back to your time and make Scorsese Spinner drueben your shit ..."
Antwort von WoWu:
Axel,
I think if the thread starter would be good friends with Michael Ballhaus and RBB have that would invite him, but even making a movie for them, he would certainly have no problems synonymous.
Since the cell phone would probably be sufficient.
But if this still CINE PLUS has the technical execution and the synonymous Ausbelichtung does, then Mr. Ballhaus as may rely not only on camera but on a lonely adult production companies.
Could the thread starter, in my opinion, no.
