Frage von schroll:
Hello,
I was close to buying a camcorder and I really like most uncertain. Well, someone has already o.Ä.gearbeitet with the new SonyFX 1 or Z 1st What are the experiences that particularly interested me the behavior of pans or even on a balance stand. There are problems, I think that sometimes rauszuhören. And otherwise, how is the quality and how the experiences are s.Schnittplatz, just do not shoot enough.
Grateful for any advice
Wolfram Schroll
Antwort von HolgerH_2:
Hello,
I was close to buying a camcorder and I really like most uncertain. Well, someone has already o.Ä.gearbeitet with the new SonyFX 1 or Z 1st As the experiences are Here
http://www.videotreffpunkt.com/board.php?boardid=42&sid=f1836b297d24f0e2a35faadc87e380bb
There are plenty of relating to.
Greeting
Holger
Antwort von schroll:
Thank you,
good tip. I've searched Soweas
Wolfram
Antwort von Ben:
One must not jump on every train that passes by! Some of that is going nowhere.
This has proven the past years.
I only say Digibetacam or IMX! Even today, crumbling the timeliness of it. (If only the individual but a pork pig cost money) But Sonyist yes mitlerweile fully on the HD-Tripp. Pay (on the back many, many times a pig pig money).
Children the time is still too early for that.
Let it be once the consumer market and be prepared for it.
Nett meant Benny (cinematographer)
Antwort von Jan:
Hello you,
In many forums there are plenty of malcontents in part with the wrong accessories or ignorance
the HDV format make bad. Good synonymous uncharted territory for me, HDV, Mini DV is synonymous 1995 and has been decried me now, I wonder if people buy a third of programs in my DV tapes! (If I've got time regular of Panasonic.)
One of the most widely read articles in the last time in this forum "which hd-cam?"
indicates some interresant points.
But in any case, your wallet should be well filled, in the reference, every user rights. For me it would not be affordable eg.
Not only the original price of the Camera
- Software and Calculator which indicated the majority of 3 GHz should not be undercut unless you're a specialist and know your PC eg. With overclocking well. Also hard drive as large as possible.
There are currently editing software like Vegas upwards s.500 ¬ zb. Good with the latest version of Magix would be a "wobbly" handling theoretically possible, but Magix does not support single-playout of HDV material. For real-time of Canopus Edius) is the first choice (wheat already has good experience with it. (Do I)
And at least HD ready standard playback device so 720x1280 Resolution
of Plasma, LCD or projector My favorite (if not ¬ 5000 are available for such a device, eg Pt Panasonic AE 700, his successor, PT AE 900, or of the new Canon SX50 with 1,400 x 1,050 pixels
(The fact is synonymous to expensive and component inputs, I could not find him at first sight, but I test movie times on a good screen.)
Good Beamer synonymous build other good companies like Pioneer.
So do not be intimidated if the money is available, you will have your pleasure in it.
January
Antwort von Markus:
Hi Wolfram,
mal's look like this: The current SD devices (SD = standard definition) are widely used and technically mature. For camcorders, you'll find a large variety of models and the MiniDV recording format (for camcorders remain the first choice) is the current state of affairs and offers both a good compatibility as synonymous with a technically simple editable. It would therefore not a bad buy if you you next week for a "normal" fetch MiniDV camcorder.
The contribution of Jan already mentioned (a good read if somewhat synonymous extensive):
Welche HD-Cam?
Von DVD-Camcordern ist hingegen eher abzuraten (die DVD ist ein schönes Medium für die Endaufzeichnung, nicht jedoch für die Originalaufnahme and als Ausgangsbasis für die Video Editing):
Edit SonyDVD 91E s.PC (-> local links)
Antwort von wolfgang:
If someone wants to go to HDV, then an SD camera is definitely a bad buy. I wonder how one can give such advice. We should warn, should point out that there are question marks. But we have definitely synonymous very satisfied user meeting point in the video who are enthusiastic about the HC1 and.
Grumbler gibts enough - but that is not art.
Antwort von Markus:
If someone wants to go to HDV, then an SD camera is definitely a bad buy. Yes, there you are certainly right. Who is so stupid Tips? * grin *
Seriously: I really wanted to show the alternative, if the issue Wolfram HDV is still too expensive or too much looks like a stage of development. I had understood his question so that he comes to whether it is a HDV - or a DV camcorder to be?
An SD camcorder is of course nothing for someone who wants to record HDV.
Antwort von WeiZen:
For real-time of Canopus Edius) is the first choice (wheat already has good experience with it. (Do I) Does Jan.
In addition to the FX1 and the JVC HD TV (tube) now I am just waiting on the new PC, my old is 3.5 years old, with EdiusNX and dual core Intel. If the dealer has been tested and found to be good in terms of performance against 2mal XEON CPU. Both Supermicro boards.
Acha yes Jörg has gekeyt times my sample m2t clip with APP 1.5 and AferEffects. A gradient of orange to yellow to neon green with a 50km / h vorbeifarendes YELLOW trike, which is visible in the background, a yellow A2, which should of course remain yellow.
Sample
Antwort von wolfgang:
So far, the Modellauwahl is rather small - that makes things simple:
Either you waiting for something. Or maybe you take
- The SonyHC1
- The SonyFX1 or its professional version
- The JVC HD 100/101
There are now constantly new devices, the latest rumor is finally coming soon to follow a Canon, both 720p and 1080i can be synonymous (maybe even 1080 25p). One more thing to wait is not necessarily wrong, if you want to be a cost effective solution is unbeatable at the time of the HC1.
Ad HC1: there are some unhappy people with it, but synonymous some very happy people. A rumor has it that there are versions with different firmware. So ideally, test and then buy. While probably not quite clear whether one can detect the s.einer inscription. When the pan is to be shown. Yet so far the only, small and handy camcorder.
Ad HD100: which is still quite new, but it works quite well so far. The cutting programs have yet to follow suit because, Vegas can still nicth, Edius kanns partially. Down conversion of HDV to SD today I have not done so sooner. But this is a professional tool, which is correspondingly expensive. So far, the first 720p device - if one disregards of the devices shipped in the U.S..
Antwort von schroll:
To explain my question again. I have a project in front of the chest and I do not want to do with my old XL1s, it is in 16:9, which then works more than solala. Ultimately, I vacillate between the xl2 and the new jvc hd 100th For me, the problems with HDV in production safety work, all that we promised it, certainly not .........., where the problems are, as initially mentioned it could be stressful with pans to process it gives me synonymous worries. On the other Page HDV is just brill.
Let's see, this week is the decision I gworden tell what it is.
Wolfram
Antwort von wolfgang:
I have extensively tested the HD101 this weekend, and would soon post a review meeting point in the video.
My impression: the camcorder is indeed quite good, but still provides some weak points. Approximately, the down conversion of 720 25p to SD with me around the croak is not working, or I once was filmed, and then there was s.tape not usable - although that failure was unique and absolutely not reproducible. Whether you are in the commercial product will no longer contain my dealer did not (I got a Vorführkamera for testing).
At present, the synonymous NLEs can thus still not really good - Vegas can capture that, but flawed, prone to crash, Edius can capture much better, interestingly, even makes an automatic scene separation at m2t material - which is a malfunction, according to Canopus Germany because synonymous Edius is not really suited to the HD101/HD100, it does lack some currently still the 720 25 (p templates are included) only 720 30p templates. The best thing was capturing yet voted with the Cineform products that are in the final version already on the HD100/101 - via this route is further synonymous in Vegas and Adobe, quite synonymous with the Inermediates.
More details forthcoming as I said in a review in www.videotreffpunkt.com
Antwort von Markus:
Hi Wolfram,
Then I have your question is obviously not understood as false. When it comes to you with no long-term product safety testing and without much follow-up investments (-> DV editing PC), then the moment is probably only the good old SD format.
PS: In the current
Antwort von wolfgang:
So I did not understand him. The HC100 is synonymous shoot very well in SD, the capture works here with the traditional NLEs.
Report is wiegesagt go - open and detailed as always.
;)
Antwort von Jan:
Hello,
at Canon is probably an HDV device (2006) with comparable price performance as in the Cracker's new digicam Canon 5D with Vollformatchip 24x36 mm for under 3500 ¬ (the old EOS 1Ds with Vollformatchip costs 7000 ¬) Prices and Equipment, as always speculation. Raushören when I was a bit of a Canon show last week.
For 1, the HC had been made synonymous to the test, I think there are two problem customers
Customer 1 uses bleats about the quality and old TV set for viewing, or something with or below 800x600.
Customer 2 complained of weakness in lowlight, has previously been Primus Vx 2100th
I do not know any good video camera with the CMOS chip in low light is not strong collapses.
I had already fierce discus ions about it. In mid-September is my Lieblingsmag VideoAktivDigital out with an intense test of HC 1st I'm curious
whether the experts confirm my feeling. Good test reports are not everything.
Not to mention the A 1 (Profivarainte HC 1 with XLR jacks and a professional timecode), a more favorable HDV with XLR connectors will not do, who can no XLR 's no need to take something else.
January
Antwort von wolfgang:
Yes, of Canon heard some rumors, synonymous in the field of professional equipment. Which are evidently often finished before the new consumer devices.
2006, HDV could be year, but if I had really expected that before the 2005 Christmas season synonymous quite a few models are synonymous already Consumbereich - for example of JVC.
When HC1 keeps a persistent rumor that there would be 2 devices with apparently different firmware, preparing what problems. Obs is true, I do not know.
Antwort von schroll:
Hello,
I've made my decision, and indeed for the old ... xl2. well, a demonstration of the jvc gy hd100, no extensive test, actually brought more than answer questions and problems and solutions, for me, especially in the further processing. Also, the HD 100 was not really available before, no concrete information internet. for yes, for me, one thing is clear. hdv supergeil the images are simple, but with the further manufacture in sd and I feel .. I just sleep better.
thanks for the love and good advice.
wolfram
Antwort von wolfgang:
Perhaps one day soon - this way to the JVC HD101 Review:
http://videotreffpunkt.com/thread.php?threadid=1457&boardid=36&styleid=6
Antwort von Jan:
Hello,
there has indeed been correctly Wolfgang trouble!
As for me is still a famous man of the interresiert MainConcept
has said:
"In real-time rendering with HDV, the present level of technology does not think you're working with a few tricks such as manufacturers (Canopus?), The MPEG data is first transformed into another format and encode it later, but this will not benefit the quality .
Well, there are other companies with real-time rendering HDV except Canopus?
Or MainConcept not find an answer to Edius HDV?
January
Antwort von wolfgang:
The "good man" has not measured the mentioned Canopus HQ codec - I have. The technical term would be "intermediate" was, perhaps not even the name which it occurred - if the quote is literally?
;)
And when rendered on the workflows
m2t -> m2t (eg via a proxy route)
versus
m2t -> Canopus Intermediate -> m2t
you lose virtually no measurable quality.
I measured habs wiegesagt - whether the MainConcept but at all interested? They're competitors of Canopus, if I remember right ...
:)
Antwort von Jan:
Hello,
You know you really well from Wolfgang.
The quote was from the Lord Bönig (I Believe), the specialist of Main Concept.
January
Antwort von Wiro:
Hello,
when the Lord Bönig is probably right with his statement.
True real-time processing with Native HDV (ie MPEG2 =. M2t) is nearly impossible with today's computers. Therefore, all "big" (in the business Canopus / CineForm, etc.), the intermediate method chosen - the so-called "tricks", as Mr. Bönig. With these "tricks" is real time editing as good as possible with normal DV, and the codecs that are used to qualitatively indistinguishable from the original MPEG - at synonymous after reverse conversion. M2t not. On the contrary - Intermediates have really only benefits.
Rückkonvertieren that the quality does not benefit Mr. Bönig
have to say probably because MainConcept so goes a different way - who want their MPEG Pro plug-selling ;-)))
MainConcept but admits that "native high definition editing because of the huge bandwidth requirements considerably slower. The goal of MPEG Pro is to avoid transcoding, wherever possible. MPEG Pro is not as real-time HD editing products have been developed but as a general and complete HD solution, "(quote from the Manual of MPEG Pro). You synonymous write that this is with a hardware extension to improve significantly.
I have installed on my system, both Appro CineForm Intermediate as synonymous of MainConcept MPEG Pro. For HD editing is there makes a huge difference in terms of real-time processing. Personally, I would never thought it, therefore, native MPEG editing with. Not to mention the proxy method, which offers MPEG Pro also is evolving.
I think that the intermediate method is currently the only sensible. Then when the calculator once around the 10-times have become faster we will see next time.
Greeting Wiro
Antwort von wolfgang:
But that refers to the finding that an alternative treatment would be difficult to transport streams. However, what is more synonymous only to 1080i, and less for 720p. In turn this thing as much as 720p, as I have seen that the intermediates are almost played harder than the m2t material. This depends, however, synonymous of finite element from the NLE.
The assumed degradation of intermediates, however, is probably out of the expressed interests rather excessive - the so considerable is the quality loss is not easy to suggest how this statement will.
Antwort von Jan:
Hello,
very interressant your contributions, the Lord of course, means not Moenig Bönig and is the chief programmer of MainConcept.
January
Antwort von wolfgang:
But what is most likely to change anything s.den content itself ...
Antwort von domain:
404ERR
Antwort von Axel:
. You will also need about 720-format it in the face of American broadcast companies agreed on a new digital format for movies that will have a 4-fold Resolutionvom HD format probably not seriously discussed.
Hello Helmut,
But here you are comparing apples with pears. The cameras, which start to record such an uncompressed format in the ¬ 100,000 - League. The cut can only be done offline at all reasonable for the output hardware is required, which in turn is in six figures. The production of such cinematographic work is the cost of a 35mm feature film behind him, even if it is subsequently digitized and only then cut (this was an article of Michael Ballhaus, I believe in the "camera"). Needless to say, all these mega-working professional Cams progressive.
The decisive factor is that consumer devices such as synonymous professionals tend to support more and more multi-format, the digital cinema precisely because of the high cost and rapid development is already a reality.
Direct Comparison - added synonymous apples and bulbs - between a very good DV cam like the Panasonic VX 100 and the FX1 shows that this camera has excellent clarity, despite the major drawback to look quite insistent on the video. Let's make it no religious war, but your comment that the format would have done 720s, could not pass unchallenged.
Antwort von wolfgang:
Helmut
Axel is right. 720p comes out in tests, even better than 1080i - testing of groups who have viewed the two materials. Interestingly Applies to sizes up to 50 inches, turns the projector around it.
http://www.film-tv-video.de/reportdetails+M57e8e82c6f9.html
(Registration required)
Even more to come of the EBU recommendations for 720p - but with 50p.
In addition, you will lose at 1080i resolution, unfortunately, because the picture has to be deinterlaced to halt virtually all visual media. It plays down the lead which the 1080i purely from the perspective of Resolutionhat, compared with 720p but very.
Otherwise: the JVC is a shoulder HD100/101 device - and thus as a guide only acceptable if you really need the quality of the optics, and wants to use the countless professional controls. The FX1 is very good and I hold to make sense, but speaks to the JVC already has a very different clientele. Since one can not speak better of worse, but rather of matching for specific customers or inappropriate. For many people, both devices are interesting because they are too big and too heavy - for example, the HC1 is the right choice. It depends ...
;)
But the interesting thing is - indeed coming soon Canon HDV camcorder.
Antwort von tanuchin:
Only the in-camera-quick and dirty deinterlacing the resolution, a software can do IMHO reduced by principle without loss of resolution (but with different advantages and disadvantages).
Antwort von Jan:
Hello you,
while watching the material from the projector or plasma, LCD or rear projection TV. Wolfgang is JVC HD 100 with 720 p at the moment a clear advantage over the 1080i of Sony Group.
Anschau for each device it would be optimal, a Resolutionzu how the recording device, that is, as with JVC HD 100 1280x720 fit together so perfectly was my favorite beamer (now running out) Pana PT-AE 700 (Also 1280x720, just under ¬ 1500), Plasma Samsung SP-50 L 7H (1280x720, well ¬ 3000), Thomson LCD 27 WL 46 G (Unfortunately, only 27, just under 1400 ¬, 1280x720) or overhead projector Television Thomson 61 DLY 644 (large 61 "for about 3000 ¬ if space there, 1280x720)
The ideal would be for Sony1920x1080
At 1920x1080 there is hardly affordable units, at plasma's basically nothing, LCD TV's Samsung LW 46 G 15 W (almost ¬ 10,000 for 1920x1080) or Sharp LC 45 GD 1 (9000 ¬ for 1920x1080) projector JVC DLA HD naja 2 P SYS (24000 ¬ flabby, 1920x1080.
During playback of Sony's 1080i material and equipment with 1280x720 De-interlacer slave labor must do what is usually punished with loss of images.
An expert of a known projector / back projector company said:
"Even with flat-screen 's reign in the four-digit price areas were still major problems in the areas of scaling and de-interlacing
Can therefore FX 1 eg with a tube and a cheaper device (wheat, this variant was used), a similar picture to be seen, as with a plasma or LCD with a moderate de-interlacer.
Videoaktiv had indeed taken with the FX 1 tested the expensive Sharp LC 45 GD 1,
and was not overly convinced of the quality of issued.
Since the Sharp synonymous with its LCD response time is faster panning s.seine boundaries.
The images with the projector JVC DLA HD 2 P and the FX 1sah made more impressive, unfortunately, the part will cost just under 25000 ¬.
Good I have already fallen, the images synonymous with 720x1280 with PT AE 700, Liesegang canvas and HC 1, the small package for less well-heeled, despite de-interlacing.
But it will probably not demanding to be satisfied.
Unfortunately I have no JVC HD 100 at the exact test (I can not convince my boss such a order, and my stock value would break the limit!), So maybe someone has already tested with the described equipment.
The TV stations go to 720P is almost clear. 720p is easier to compress and could be on the digital television networks with lower speed transport to the recipient. This allows multiple channels and the channels would be much cheaper.
The advantage of 1080 i had in the 50 fields with moving pictures ahead is hardly count for the TV, either, he is clearly visible.
I'm curious about how Sonyda rauswindet.
January
Antwort von Bruno Peter:
At 1920x1080 there is hardly affordable units Look! The BenQ DV3750 s.für about 1,500 ¬ uro!
Available from October ...
Then you can slide synonymous asugeben shows in 1920 x 1080!
Datasheet:
ftp://62.101.64.70/lcd_tv/datasheets/datenblatt_benq_dv3750.pdf
Antwort von wolfgang:
Only the in-camera-quick and dirty deinterlacing the resolution, a software can do IMHO reduced by principle without loss of resolution (but with different advantages and disadvantages). This may not always synonymous software without loss of resolution - as synonymous? It's pretty no preference, be it a hardware or software deinterlacing makes - there is always loss of resolution. One question is still, according to which computing algorithm is the thing - through the aperture fields, by discarding a half image and interpolating the missing lines. Aber sowas in principle must remain always a calculated approximation, and the resolution costs. Unfortunately.
Antwort von Jan:
Hello Bruno Peter
I'll mark me right times, is so incredible price / performance ratio.
HC 1, I'm so there, I'm curious how the picture looks with the Benq.
January
Antwort von domain:
Hello,
January means it is probably clear that broadcasters are going to be 720P. Let's see, after all, Premiere starts with 1080i. After 6 weeks U.S., I can say that there probably even less interest s.HD there than here. The e-industry would certainly like to see a lively interest among consumers, but I can currently see on a broad basis, neither here nor there. Moreover, I am between NTSC and PAL noticed no major difference. The most sensible would be possibly a broadband PAL on a real basis without Letterboxbeschneidung or anamorphic 16:9 compression. HDTV is not the first Megaflop the electronics industry, when it should not be developed in accordance with the sales expectations, but we hope for the best.
At a recurring issue in various debates, the synonymous Axel has raised, namely that various videos but "... penetrating look on the video" My opinion: it is historical fact that new visual media has always tried to imitate the process as enshrined viewing habits . Just think s.Verfahren that should turn a Stillimage something like a painting. Even in Photoshop, there are still Brush Strokes.
Thought experiment: when digital video was made before the silver photography, you would now do everything possible to imitate the good old video look. By the way CMOS chips are taking the good old silver films in my opinion, much more similar again today, more than the CCD chips to spread, namely, higher dynamic range, better tracing and smoother gradation in the bright image areas, as well as "the breadbasket" and decent Grieseln in dark image areas, all representatives of the film would have really liked. In addition, the spectral sensitivity of these chips will be much closer to the human eye than CCDs. Also I like the film-look: vertical jerky tracks, dust and scratches and you feel as if being young again and in time.
Question s.Wolfgang etc.: with static shots from the tripod out but should be seen basically no differences between interlaced and progressive, or am I wrong? Snapshots are made from the original material on FX1 Power DVD perfect, but uabei Womble unusable for light pans. Sägezahneffekte, apparently erroneous computational algorithm for "weaving" of the 2 fields.
Gruß Helmut
Antwort von domain:
Addendum
Axel has a point but rather, the problem of too much available depth at most camcorders. But then there are solutions already synonymous. Synonymous respect, I believe that the medium format will give possibly with sensor chips in photography for a long time.
Gruß Helmut
Antwort von Jan:
Hello you,
We all are not clairvoyant, so it is already speculation as I say.
720 P would be logical for the above reasons, but Sony
will with all means try to seize the helm s.sich, as in HDD DVD and Blue Ray. JVC does not have the resources necessary to gegenzuhalten, I think.
At the moment even giant Sonywankt is clear why there are clearly better for Dealers s.October Prices for digicam's and camcorders on most models (HDV + DVD models do not) and when Sonygilt the motto at the moment "recovering s.alter sales strength . Since you lost s.Boden masiv 2005 JVC, Canon and Panasonic have caught up very well. If it's next run, the dominance is almost over in the near future, but they still have other areas where they are unbeatable as the outstanding running PSP.
January
Antwort von frankfox:
@ Domain
I would be interested if you've dragged the fx1 private amusement to synonymous, or if you received your commercial project uses. What are you cut?
Antwort von domain:
@ FRANKFOX
Yes, I only movies for my private pleasure and cut "is currently (please do not laugh) with Womble to the subtractive method, everything will not fit me eliminated in the timeline and appropriate umgeschlichtet and nothing else changed it. The original quality remains after the Smartrendern fully preserved for later finishing with my current hardware (P4 3 GHz) is no other smooth working with other programs possible. And as I have already tested a few things: Vegas 6.0b, Edius Pro 3 and MSP 8th Can you remember my opinion, with all current hardware. From the news here ev AvidXpress Pro HD and Edius Pro 3 with significant hardware upgrade on Windows s.besten could still work.
LG Helmut
Antwort von wolfgang:
Helmut Well, our little joint test project I've cut into Vegas6 of mjpeg-avi using proxies and Gearshift, which is definitely good.
Intermediates can be used synonymous already half-way reasonable on a more than 3 Ghz P4, are no preference, obs Canopus or Cineform intermediates. The direct processing of the transport streams is hard, eh clear.
Sure, come with 2 - and 4-core PCs is still brisk, sowas I laugh at me in six months or nine months.
On the issue with peaceful FX1 pictures: clear, with a stationary object and quiet Kamerastandort you expect from the interlaced method no disadvantages. But the appeal of video is so that you capture synonymous movement. Seen wirds depart probably not in real shooting oihne movement.
Antwort von domain:
Hello Wolfgang,
Country lifestyle you are right, that it is somehow synonymous with current software. But I simply s.Schnittprogrammen no fun, the minutes for the preparation of frame table or preview, or need proxy files, and then a few more hours for rendering. For me, a future editing program can in principle only as such. Womble work, but stop with more features. Programs and this will surely come, native Mpeg2 cut in real time and without annoying delays and without functional overkill, of which one does not need 80% before. As recently said a pro at Cutter McIntosch in another forum: if it was just the cutting, then he came and made synonymous with iMovie would be no joke.
LG Helmut
