ultimate beginner needs Council for its path (8mm, 16mm and the cost)
Frage von Sondiq: Dezember 2006
Slashcam Hello dear community, I am now about 3 weeks since s.googlen, read forums, look at ebay and have finally dared me to post here after I my opinion, enough s.der first Knowledge layer was scratched.
I practically start of 0, which cameras are concerned. I've been in several years, a mediocre digital camera, the synonymous frequently used, but I think you dealing with this in no way can count.
My goal is in camera range at least as much knowledge to gain that I easily with a 16mm camera a la Arri 16 ST eg: translators.
My question now is how should I prepare enough practice and experience, so that me in the purchase of a 16mm camera, the cost of film stock, not in the ruin and focused and I can work quickly.
What I found until now, is practically the statement that I have an error in 16mm will cost a nice sum.
I have now receives the increased reflex camera, Canon AE1, well maintained, I think that's a good 1st Step.
How should it go?
Is it advisable nor an 8mm camera to buy?
The cost relatively little.
Just how close are these cameras the 16mm models?
Can 8mm was useful for learning or 16mm SLR, the first from?
PS: I know that DV cameras a lot cheaper, for Beginners to the optimum and the initial film in the future will be replaced but I am firmly convinced somehow that film gives an elementary experience, in relation to the planning and operation.
Antwort von nico:
Hello Sondiq,
because you did something really nice made. What you like, but the Canon AE1 serve, I am not quite clear. Sure, you "learn" it with a reflex viewfinder deal, but not more - in relation to the shooting.
It is true that mistakes in 16mm really go into Money. The but you can minimize, if you are good with a Super8 camera, such as Beaulieu start. See you at times but Wittner film technology, to Mannheim (www.beaulieu.de) It will give you a good choice s.Kameras and accessories at reasonable prices and some will get a really good advice.
Not that anyone comes to silly ideas: I'm with the company not related or marriage and do not synonymous benefits. I know it only as a quasi-successor of the former Knight-Film GmbH, ussynonymous for the television stations were active.
Antwort von Sondiq:
I had thought that a similar reflex camera is a good start to get a little bit in the field of film exposure to incorporate.
So as a layman is concerned, but the difference is not too great, except that you hold in the second 25 frames instead of a shooting but Lighting, Lens, Focus etc. pp but are identical in the application?
Nice link, have saved him time, a pity that there are no cameras there are more but I will look at similar models on ebay search.
Antwort von Ka:
"Sondiq" wrote:
I had thought that a similar reflex camera is a good start to get a little bit in the field of film exposure to incorporate.
Nonsense. That's about as useful as a bike to buy a car to drive to learn.
Antwort von Sondiq:
"Anonymous" wrote:
"Sondiq" wrote:
I had thought that a similar reflex camera is a good start to get a little bit in the field of film exposure to incorporate.
Nonsense. That's about as useful as a bike to buy a car to drive to learn.
Achso achso ... but yes actually learned to ride a bicycle when the basic traffic rules ... signs, right before left, arm outstretched <=> flash, feeling for the transport, etc. ... so it was at least for me ...
Antwort von Ka:
"Sondiq" wrote:
PS: I know that DV cameras a lot cheaper, for Beginners to the optimum and the initial film in the future will be replaced but I am firmly convinced somehow that film gives an elementary experience, in relation to the planning and operation.
The sentence I do not understand it fully. Why 8/16mm film brings you more for planning than DV? Shooting generally takes much more than photography: Idea, script, actors, editing, soundtrack - and yes that could in any case, synonymous with DV practice. Which film projects as you float ever?
LG Peter
Antwort von Schleichmichel:
In fact, your account does hurt if you build crap. But I believe synonymous, so that you will not be some errors again ... that'll do in video is actually different. Also, you'll S8 to 16mm or not a film diary of your armpit hair do (<- more images with questionable benefit .... ie, you will have a fairly accurate idea of whether, on this or that motive can do) to be the world on YouTube or something for discussion.
Other hand, a reflex from synonymous to Picture and lighting design to internalize. Just set everything to manual and do as if a longer exposure time than 1 / 48 seconds would be (if still a Bolex ... not planned on 1 / 80;)
Comparison of the score with a bicycle lags decently ...
The depth of focus is not identical to the miniature movie!
At S8, I would be careful that the camera is still usable with today's Batteries (meter needs synonymous for manual operation of juice) and the ASA figures.
What do you want to shoot for? Reversal film (W / Color?) Negative Film (SW / Color?). For negative, there are only 2 in S8 emulsions (at least of Kodak) ... the 200 and the 500s from the Vision2 series.
Cameras, you can at www.kinotechnik-rinser.de, www.filmcamerakit.com, www.used-filmequipment.com, www.cordialfilm.de and what I know where to buy. The bay is of course to enjoy with caution. Real bargains do you do as synonymous but quite rare, therefore, of ...
Antwort von PowerMac:
"Sondiq" wrote:
(...) My goal is in camera range at least as much knowledge to gain that I easily with a 16mm camera a la Arri ST 16, for example: can handle. (...)
At this rate every cameraman gets pimples! It is not about the medium, the handling, the technology. Certainly technical basics are relatively important, but that you learn in two hours. It goes on camera for more than technical handling! It's about art, aesthetics, intention, staging, want to express something, effects to scenic resolution. I contend it takes talent and years of training, thousands of times more valuable than technical handling.
Two questions:
Would you like Kameraassi (technician) will be? Why lock-in to this movie?
Antwort von Chezus:
Sure, you can and with digital cameras shooting more mist than with analog cameras because you can play everything about how funny and the tapes cost nearly nothing. Super 8 film (5min) a 29 euros, and Comparison to MiniDV cassettes about 2.5 euros (depending) 60 min.
Eg I've started with photography and I must say that with the digital EOS could gather more experience than with the analogue predecessors. The reason is simple: because you do not have much money to develop any crap, you can not synonymous all possible ways out of the camera.
You can go with digital equipment at the result and know immediately what you've done right and what is not. With analog, you'll see it only if you already have spent a lot of money, and you ärgerst afterwards that you do not otherwise have done. Then you have to try it again and the money goes to.
If you have anything on film but wants to have it rest with a digital until you achieved everything that it is worth up to 16mm. Then, I would first give an borrow and try again.
Just try it out. One learns from its mistakes. You can find the theory so often durchstudieren ... the practice but it looks completely different from
Antwort von Sondiq:
"PowerMac" wrote:
"Sondiq" wrote:
(...) My goal is in camera range at least as much knowledge to gain that I easily with a 16mm camera a la Arri ST 16, for example: can handle. (...)
At this rate every cameraman gets pimples! It is not about the medium, the handling, the technology. Certainly technical basics are relatively important, but that you learn in two hours. It goes on camera for more than technical handling! It's about art, aesthetics, intention, staging, want to express something, effects to scenic resolution. I contend it takes talent and years of training, thousands of times more valuable than technical handling.
Two questions:
Would you like Kameraassi (technician) will be? Why lock-in to this movie?
No, actually I want to go in the direction of Directing but I would hold of reason to all areas at least to some degree learn.
I am well aware that the slightest aspect of the technology but rather here in the forum to write: "I want a film, what is the perfect camera?" I initially set small goals. What good is it to me, great scenes and images in our minds, if the technique prevents me to implement it. If I had a DV camera, I think that you can experiment a lot but in retrospect, is acquired this attitude that the technology for an all over, then under the motto "We shoot the scene just 30 times, someday halt what is useful out ".
In film making you my thoughts for hours in the pre prod. how a scene should look like, because you know it costs money properly when it is not in the first 3-5 takes work through these limits you have increases your creativity and you learn with the budget deal. If the work patterns stamped in your memory, is a switch to DV certainly possible but I will stop avoiding that I made a habit of work is Schluder.
Antwort von PowerMac:
That is complete nonsense! Why should you when everything DV shoot 30 times? This is a huge mistake. Just because you shoot DV with sloppy Rotate and 30 Takes connect, it's still a long way, so that the usual and makes sense. Do you believe the financial pressures because of expensive film stock makes your work more efficient? Do you think movies are better when they are with a few takes to be filmed? Do you think the recording process of the Camera s.sich has staged production with something to do? Do you think actors play better when money because they are under pressure? Take a good turns that the staging is good and the director likes. The recording format is scheiss egal. It is s.dir, to make everything right, not a constraint. All your desires are of a professional everyday shooting, format is irrelevant. In the U.S. it is even so that the costs for film material is completely no preference. They will diligently each setting 20 times and rotated so until it fits. And almost always need actors together with the many attempts Directing. But not the rest of team. The team is finally professionally.
The 30 Takes mentality comes of bad student films and short films with bad directors and bad camera men who are not able to focus, etc. The only problem s.der thing is your head. Not a constraint makes your movie is good or efficient (a film must be rotated efficiently? What if you spend hours beforehand "vain" and ineffective in a significant, emotional moment / outbreak waiting?), But you and your production.
Antwort von Jan:
Nimm erstmal really a DV Cam.
Photography for me is much easier than Videography.
Let difficult scenes, in the SLR can thank technology and accessories (stabilizer & Tripod or through my clever flash control), one of 5-10 images with reasonable certainty, the right choice after exposure, sensitivity, and distance WAG what will. Vorrausgesetzt the eye to the subject and to choose the right excerpt.
When does the film a little different, you have no second chance, at least if you turn with a camera, each wobblers, bottles zooming (not zurückzoomen directly at the previously selected Ausschnit amateurish and find out and herzoomen to find them), or the zoom too fast or too slow operated -- will be mercilessly punished the sound synonymous plays an important role to predict ausgepegelt wrong, makes the otherwise flawless images destroyed. Or, the AF is set, and the camera suddenly comes into problems and pumping out like crazy and her - just blurry picture - film out.
Yes to the Basics is synonymous much similar, there are synonymous the shutter speed, the aperture or the gain of the sensor, no preference or ISO Gain obs means. The right illuminate the scene is both just as important as the correct white balance. The depth of the used Camera & Optics synonymous should be reasonably able.
I still do not understand why it is equal to ne Arnold & Richter to be naja wenns Money is there ....
A camera like VX 2100 or FX 7 - or better yet, would you forward, because the manual parameters (shutter, aperture, gain, focus (ring) or Zoom (ring) practical & fast s.der Camera can be set. If then good experiences with the squad DV PD 170, DV 5100 etc, you can then synonymous to the "film" cameras that focus.
VG Jan
Antwort von Sondiq:
Arri was only an example, I've now not to stiffen.
Since I am on the level miniDV'm not so knowledgeable, what s.sich films are concerned, because someone can give me some reference works, which with a camcorder have? So I look at the ways money can be verified, so you can achieve.
Antwort von Quadruplex:
Very funny discussion here ...
I would of film cameras completely leave the fingers (except for special operations). For Practice (Directing, lighting design, etc.) is a good DV camcorder, the best thing there is, because the material costs and man nix things synonymous same on-screen television monitor. Getting (and actor) to prepare for the shooting is not a matter of cost, but of discipline. And if you seriously want to spend money and can, dumping it in film, but a camcorder with you the high resolution and after full opportunity to film it.
And if it absolutely must Film: As far as I know, of super-8-shooting only remaining stocks sold.
Antwort von grovel:
Sondiq,
Please take the somewhat "sharp" sound is not bad. We all try to help you get a little friendlier than some others. If you did not want anything to read, then read the conclusion, there is still a tip.
As you've already seen, we all not much of your idea, films with the same 16mm film. Many of us have bigger projects behind him and it would still not confident in 16mm film. This has several reasons. Firstly, the material is extremely expensive, you can ruin within a very short time. Secondly, is filming on film very much more complex than digital.
Imagine it out before a film project.
1. Rotary work. Du film a scene, but you have no idea how it looks until you get back the material developed. You know not whether the recording was sharp, correctly exposed, the actors do not for a moment in the Camera compatriots have the Microphone dipped into the frame, etc. For all that you need to wait for the set was long ago dismantled, actors and costumes are away if you want to rotate after, you will, even if you back the same team s.dieselbe location bringest, almost inevitably have continuity problems. So will you, just to be sure, probably takes longer than on digital, certainly not less.
2. Cut. Ok, you've got an expensive 16mm camera bought at least now you'll need either a film editing room (extremely expensive) or you can scan your whole material (synonymous extremely expensive) and cut digitally. The two go not only into the money, but will require much additional knowledge synonymous.
3. Demonstration. Do you have digital cut, you now have the material back lasered in full if you want quality projected (that you can (HD) DVDs directly create), you s.Filmmaterial work, you must now back up and the material can still scan, unless you will never be distributed on DVD. You need to hire a cinema, because you probably do not have projector.
Do you see as synonymous a few stumbling blocks?
Nobody starts at 16mm, it makes such projects only with people who already have experience with this. Without financing, it is also virtually impossible to realize the self.
Of course this is all cheaper when you turn on 8mm - just where is the advantage. DV is in many situations 8mm equal, if you approve with 8mm cameras turn superior. At the latest HDV but 8mm obsolete. Therefore synonymous my tip: Purchase you an HDV Camera and turning so that you will not regret it.
Thus you see that not only amateur digital twist, here our last thread on the question "What films were rotated on IR?" http://forum.slashcam.de/viewtopic.php?p=145897
Have fun in the digital world,
SeeYa Groveler
Antwort von kevinsade:
http://www.doubleedgefilms.com/
then on "Spin" button.
Camera: SonyFX1 or Z1.
Antwort von Jan:
Sönke Wortmann - summer Germany is a fairytale with Panasonic DVX 100th Although the film of the film's quality has convinced me less, the mood across the aim - but was there. (I meant not Poldi where the camera was in the hands ....)
There is mass of good films & videos of synonymous rather unknown camera men. An example of a video like what I really liked prism film has of Chur in Switzerland:
Antwort von Jan:
The very interesting film of Double Edge shows again that the FX 1 / Z 1 down wrongly made.
VG Jan
Antwort von Axel:
"Sondiq" wrote:
No, actually I want to go in the direction of Directing but I would hold of reason to all areas at least to some degree learn. [...] What use is it to me, great scenes and images in our minds, if the technique prevents me to implement it.
A psychological problem. The technology prevents me ... I give you one piece of advice, and he is worth more than an entire Hollywood studio, a year working for free for you: Do! My motto below is a friendly, but raw, kick ass for myself and all those missing or meager equipment as an excuse for inaction hernehmen. The prevention, dreamed films a reality, has the ambitious Endstation than the complete failure. It is not a "creative block", it is death.
Modern behavioral throws of life into the cold water. You can only make films when ... ? Movies can make every day. If you are standing s.Anfang ( "Ultimate Beginners"), you realize with DV short, simple films, exercises. If you want to make films, the best first train, a film. And please with lots of beginner mistakes. Who wants to make no mistakes, does not synonymous films. In order to get experience, you need to make art.
There has never been such a big arena for ambitious filmmakers: YouTube or the entire Internet. Piles of garbage. Träum from the fact that your movie is distinguishable that thousands and always see him next link. The dream can in a week come true. At the beginning (The dream of the perfect first film remains a dream that you are still dreaming in the Hereafter).
BTW: There are other maxims that seem to have found, see Jan's motto: If you know the right way, is so little done, for instance, only the known, which it sees Him synonymous to go.
Antwort von Schleichmichel:
There is a very warm around the heart, if you read something, Axel.
Next, one could say ...
As a director, it is sometimes quite good, to know how something works. But ultimately, it is s.Kameramann the Picture implement. It is therefore not entirely synonymous hindrance if you do not have the scene from the technical possibilities developed. One could say that if the technology has in mind that on some things did not come because you have the technical limitations provides.
It is the problem of camera, sound and light crew (and other parties), according to the director with the eyes to roll and then thought to how to solve technical setting.
