Frage von deepbluetube:
Hello, I have times a conceptual question - I say the same s.Anfang excuse, because probably not new, but I understand it's not easy ;-)
25p is 25 frames. Now I read more often, that although the various camcorder actually filming (such as the Canon HV10), but it as 50i, ie 50 fields on the tape store - and it's what's so synonymous as footage on the computer.
Next I read, that would be synonymous necessary, because it actually 1080p25 "does not exist" (clearly, you could technically produce, but would not "officially specified). Hmmm.
SO 50i and 25p was actually JUST THE SAME.
But I rather suspect that as the HV10 actually 50 frames per second film and then as half of the tape writes. If so, then this is not exactly the same. Because it is between two fields so synonymous a temporal offset of 1 / 50 sec
That makes a difference already. Because in the first case that I can without any loss deinterlace to 25p, in the second case I have to think about again and leave it perhaps 50i?
And anyway it is not clear to me why every now and again someone writes 50i would be space-saving than 25p. Why should 50 times 1 / 2 space-saving than 25 times 1 be?
Thanks in advance for explanation, it could synonymous hopefully a few others are interested.
Best g.
Antwort von PowerMac:
Wrong. There are 1080/25p as well as 1080/50i. In fact save some tape formats 1080/25p technical fields, as a transport stream.
Other memory types may well be right in 25p store. About P2, XDCAM ...
Antwort von PowerMac:
(...) And anyway it is not clear to me why every now and again someone writes 50i would be space-saving than 25p. Why should 50 times 1 / 2 space-saving than 25 times 1 be? (...) Tell no one.
Antwort von deepbluetube:
Wrong. There are 1080/25p as well as 1080/50i. In fact save some tape formats 1080/25p technical fields, as a transport stream.
Other memory types may well be right in 25p store. About P2, XDCAM ... ok - that clarifies what ever. And how do I (or my friend ;-) an Adobe m2t to whether it as a 25p as 50i "packed in it or a" real 50i which really delayed 50 half-images are "? Because I would but in a broader workflow treated differently?
Antwort von Jan:
25 P and 50i can not ever be the same.
Take your time to a Canon HV 20 & 30 and films with 25 P i and 50 - the difference should really see any. Usually you get at 25 P a little more "light" - the signal has to be not so strongly reinforced. Full (full as if it was produced) are synonymous for better stability and less turbulence, the flicker of the fields - there is not synonymous to recognize.
The question should always be in the models, as the camera reads the pictures, which makes it like a progressive (eg some Sony's) and the other interlaced (like some Canons). About the workflow is little known that a company remains s.Anfang the chain at the same sensor and progressively work up s.Schluss interlaced rauszugeben, others remain the same in the Hall pictures.
Some companies potter eh a lot together, I was last time a Canon board dismantled, and what kind of memory modules as I think (I can at the moment, unfortunately, no pictures to upload) of NEC and Sony!
One need but definitely more than 25 P in order to better present motion, or believe that a höherklassige Camera - the better deal than the consumer models.
25 P especially in the above mentioned models, Canon is moving subjects but only to recommend a bad stop motion representation. But as a nice feature to have another look to obtain.
Like the SW Programs interpret the material you have to look - because I let the cut here in preference to experienced.
VG
Jan
Antwort von Flo_vdH:
I understand more and more ... thank s.alle. Now I really would especially like to know how I rauskriege what the m2t footage really in it, that leaves my HV10. An encoded as 50i or 25p a "real 50i" with staggered fields? Weiss someone, or someone has a tip how to rauskriegt?
Antwort von Jan:
Had the HV 10 on a 25 P & F function, which is in the menu just like the GM 20 & HV 30 can switch?
As far as I can remember (I have the HV 10 provides 1 years have not seen) - no.
Canon says in its documentation of the HV 10 is only Halbbildverarbeitung of 1080i, is never talk of P & F.
At the AGM 20 & 30 is of the merger of 2 fields talk. I'll give at times, I have the 25 P mode does not care what the editing programs show there.
VG
Jan
Antwort von Jan:
Yes, it is synonymous've read:
Thread: Test: Canon HV30 - Missed Evolution
But I am not quite sure whether it really is 100% true.
Since I am in the 25 P mode with a 20 & 30 HV synonymous with a 1 / 50 sec film can, it is not the car 1 / 25 sec is required.
Besides would not it only 2 simultaneously created and collected in fields such as the HV 20 & 30th
I believe that not many can say with certainty - what thing is there, possibly WoWu.
VG
Jan
Antwort von WoWu:
I do not know whether the question I really have understood correctly, but the P mode sets in any case, once such an image sensor provided in which the entire Resolutionauch (block) can be retrieved.
That's when some 720 still affordable in 1440 but the air is already thin and in 1920, which requires a different league. It could also be synonymous pixel shifts, the sum is a progressive synonymous Picture permit.
As far as I am but of the Canon white, it sets in the absence of genuine Progressivbilder two interlaced images.
But, as it were, as a small consolation pavement, she images from more than 50% of the required lines, so the picture a much finer appearance gets.
After that everything just "noise and smoke," with whatever the signal is then made and as the header in the TS is set to be freely configurable. At the AGM had 20 I think they still called Q and I do not know whether this has changed for the HV30.
For example, the new JVC 1080p resulting synonymous yes, because if I remember correctly tuned. And ultimately s.dieser signaling modeled the NLE ....
The Signaling but says nothing, and again nothing about how the pictures "zusammengemurxt" were. This refers not to Canon, because it is still relatively reasonable and in good quality hinbekommen Field and the higher resolution compared to other manufacturers, the only "real" Halbbildauflösung deliver synonymous quite an advantage.
Now you can argue whether the camera the better De-Interlace or the NLE.
For most NLEs, I would prefer Canon performance, especially since it synonymous to good hardware can rely.
If I do not really understand question (answered) had the only demand.
Another tip to "rauskriegen" interlacing would make not hide, and when image analysis is the effects found.
I said in another thread once the Pope of the de-interlacing cited (Yves Faroudja), which makes it to the point is: It does not work.
Antwort von PowerMac:
It is only here but around television standards and nothing more. There are 1080/25p. Question answered:)
Antwort von WoWu:
Then you have to read the thread but the headline is limited ....
Antwort von efact:
Hello Wowu,
I have the older Canon HV10 test found here:
"A closer analysis showed that the HV10 actually only at 25 FPS full record. The stripes are interlaced with the cut no longer exists. But we must not look too early: Evidently cost 25fps mode synonymous little sharpness."
Together with the next what you explain above, I would be as follows:
1. The HV10 seems to chip 25 frames in 1440 * 1080 to create. Is the camera to "TV 25 FPS" then they generated synonymous simply 1440 * 1080p25. Probably she writes, but as the 50i to tape and it comes as a 50i m2t as after the capture on the computer. So then it eats the NLE. Since then, I am not clear whether an NLE irgenwie recognizes that there will actually be right back 25p loss can make it (but then there would not synonymous Faroudja against) or whether it's 50 times better half is at rest.
2. If the camcorder is not at 25fps, then overwhelmed by the hardware, as you explain above. It is then the frames are no longer fast enough to get the chip. So it actually produces 1440 * 1080i50, with the half of how you explain something even better than "half", but they are really time to 1 / 50 makes them really are interlaced. Then the next NLE as with (1). Then the NLE synonymous practicable 50i leave and not being asked anything deinterlace. But as synonymous, I wonder whether the NLE itself somehow recognizes and reacts to that somehow.
3. Again on the Slashcam test: "A closer analysis showed that the HV10 actually only at 25 FPS full record. The stripes are interlaced with the cut no longer exists." - Ok, since someone has really times exactly two images compared. I read so that the 50i camcorder still has left, just that two images hintereinder fit exactly into each other and, therefore, truly a real full results. Correct me, if I'm wrong. If it's so, why for God's sake, but then make the ever 50i for the tape and for the resulting m2t and it can not simply be 25p?
Greetings and thanks for feedback g.
Antwort von efact:
The absence of Kammeffekten deinterlaces is by far no evidence for a fast progressive recording. It is true what Yves Faroudja after the sale of his company said: perfect deinterlacing does not exist.
How is synonymous in the second half with 1 / 50 sec time delay recorded and where various objects in the picture while moving in different directions can then correct the timing of recording of the first half image may be returned? It is only approximate, but not perfect
Antwort von Axel:
... why for God's sake, but then make the ever 50i for the tape and for the resulting m2t and it can not simply be 25p? The 25F can be had only ever been about 12 months of the cut programs correctly interpreted. Canon offered on the Support Home Preset free downloads, after the flagship XL H1 prosumer, in many tests because of its pseudo progressive mode was laughed off (without the right NLE hoppelt the picture like an Easter bunny). A camcorder has synonymous for ensuring compatibility, and it has been decided just for HDV, and it is always "i".
With the Panasonic HVX and EX1 have Sonywith the same alternative format, but the cameras are about 5000 ¬. You can be sure that the buyer is informed and a more complicated workflow are taken, or on a more expensive software.
Would the whole small hard disks and DVD Cams bother before on the market since updates for all major NLEs to develop, instead of useless proprietary software in the box to place - it would be a real alternative.
So rather with a small trick (which actually is not new, all movie DVDs have almost 25F, and in DV, which by definition synonymous "i", there is the trick synonymous already) into a full commercial stream inject as this codec Babylon.
Antwort von Axel:
The absence of Kammeffekten deinterlaces is by far no evidence for a fast progressive recording. It is true what Yves Faroudja after the sale of his company said: perfect deinterlacing does not exist.
How is synonymous in the second half with 1 / 50 sec time delay recorded and where various objects in the picture while moving in different directions can then correct the timing of recording of the first half image may be returned? It is only approximate, but not perfect It IS not deinterlaced! Canon describes the principle in the manual (A1):
If at Progressive (A / B / C) signals and are used in 50 B / s will be converted (a / a / b / b / c / c). The video output from the HDV entrance is made with 25 B / s interlaced. Ie 50 fields to the 50i standard to be met, but the fields are complementary to a full screen. The NLE must now be reported that the images have no Halbbildreihenfolge. This flag exists for DV in all programs, but not HDV.
Antwort von efact:
Yes if so, then there is nothing to moan anyway, the output of two fields of one and the same full is not the problem.
WoWu only doubted whether there really is going on and especially in 1920-it chips, which in a different league to run. If the "full" so contrary to the prospectus but internal data from two fields TimeShifted "zusammengemurxt" is, of course, sees the matter yet again completely different.
Antwort von DeeZiD:
According to Canon, the 25pf mode in contrast to the A1 mode 25f real progressive, but which is admittedly quite synonymous easily recognizable ...
The deinterlacer of the A1 (which HV20/HV30 by the progressive scan is not needed) works only mediocre. On the PC are the results for example with Avisynth (eg SecureBob or McBob) significantly better.
So s.alle A1, G1, H1-owner, filming and interlaced with Avisynth deinterlacet s.PC!
Gruß Dennis
Antwort von efact:
True progressive images, which then has two fields were out there were, incidentally, has in the FX1. One had only the exposure time to 1 / 25 or longer are. Was it immediately apparent that a subsequent deinterlaces the two fields with these exposure times no longer has effect. The Picture was with or without deinterlaces inden table.
Antwort von deepbluetube:
...
It IS not deinterlaced! Canon describes the principle in the manual (A1): If at Progressive (A / B / C) signals and are used in 50 B / s will be converted (a / a / b / b / c / c). The video output from the HDV entrance is made with 25 B / s interlaced.
Ie 50 fields to the 50i standard to be met, but the fields are complementary to a full screen. The NLE must now be reported that the images have no Halbbildreihenfolge. This flag exists for DV in all programs, but not HDV. There are two ways to transmit frames as a whole (progressive) or as two consecutive fields with the same time index (progressive with segmented frames, PSF). ... Also, the 1080i HDTV format is often used in this mode, while 720p and the new 1080fullHD (1080p) as a rule with real frames are sent.
From "http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vollbildverfahren“
Thus, if the camcorder creates internal 25p, and if it is then for compatibility reasons to 50i, then the same but with time index for the two fields of a frame.
That is surely the NLE read - synonymous with HD, or just because. I would say synonymous, it happens because my Premiere says, after importing a gecapturten m2t mit50i, it would have been 25 fps frames in each clip. True indeed synonymous, when the time codes of the 50 fields showed only 25 frames.
If the camcorder is still synonymous with the recording at 25 frames / Sec stood, then so must necessarily true 25p without any misalignment between two fields of a frame shown.
Disregarding the 25 frames / sec - setting off, then I would assume that the two fields of a frame are actually at different times - even if the camera still stubbornly for the two fields the same time index writes. That would be about as if it would be 25p film, but a 1 / 50 shutter would. Would not be bad if it would.
Can anything but synonymous quite different than I in my Layenkopf think so ...
Antwort von efact:
I see exactly the same way, with my knowledge CCDs as opposed to first CMOS times not so interlaced rows can be read. Presumably, ie 50 times / s progressive in a buffer read, then the of the i-method from the 50 fps overall matrix alternating times the straight and after 1 / 50 sec. the odd lines are weiterverwertet.
So in short: in CCD I can the need for internal Zusammenwurschtelns from half to a full do not quite imagine. But what do you have exactly?
Antwort von efact:
I see exactly the same way, with my knowledge CCDs as opposed to first CMOS times not so interlaced rows can be read. Presumably, ie 50 times / s progressive in a buffer read, then the of the i-method from the 50 fps overall matrix alternating times the straight and after 1 / 50 sec. the odd lines are weiterverwertet.
So in short: in CCD I can the need for internal Zusammenwurschtelns from half to a full do not quite imagine. But what do you have exactly? As far as I know, it's the other way. : D
The CCDs of A1/G1/H1-Reihe are interlaced, so be synonymous out.
The 25f mode is nothing more than a by a (quite moderate * arghhh *) deinterlacer "together wurscht advanced progressive fashion.
Since I have the 100% progressive CMOS sensors of the HV20 or the EX1 prefer.
Gruß Dennis
Antwort von Axel:
Can anything but synonymous quite different than I in my Layenkopf think so ... I am so synonymous. I know that the A1 delivers full, because I'm extremely suspicious of what Halbbildeffekte in pictures deinterlaceten concerns. The A1 is not present, is not synonymous with very fast movements and motion blur. Then there is the rather typical for HDV lubricating effects used in "i" are equally disturbing. Synonymous but I read that there will be 11% resolution loss in the "f" mode, something which is somehow with the CCD chip to do with the needs and what DeeZiD says:
According to Canon, the 25pf mode in contrast to the A1 mode 25f real progressive, but which is admittedly quite synonymous easily recognizable ...
The deinterlacer of the A1 (which HV20/HV30 by the progressive scan is not needed) works only mediocre. On the PC are the results for example with Avisynth (eg SecureBob or McBob) significantly better. I think until I see it. Until then (for me on a Mac a little expensive, because I only have to install Windows) is that I know deinterlacer and accessible, eg in the synonymous Viera TH-50PV7 installed (admittedly, not a FullHD) for "i" produce inferior images as in "f". This is only valid for a lot of movement.
Antwort von efact:
I know that the A1 delivers full, because I'm extremely suspicious of what Halbbildeffekte in pictures deinterlaceten concerns. The A1 is not present, is not synonymous with very fast movements and motion blur. This seems logical to me to be synonymous. Because CCD Halbbildsensoren (for A1), I can sometimes do not imagine. There would then yes 6 of them available, for both 3 and just 3 for odd lines ;-))
Antwort von DeeZiD:
At least, the CCDs of A1/G1/H1, as in many other cameras synonymous, interlaced read out.
Here is an explanation of the 25f mode:
http://www.videomaker.com/blog/2006/11/181-initial-thoughts-of-the-canon-xh-a1-and-xh-g1
Gruß Dennis
Antwort von Axel:
I know that the A1 delivers full, because I'm extremely suspicious of what Halbbildeffekte in pictures deinterlaceten concerns. The A1 is not present, is not synonymous with very fast movements and motion blur. This seems logical to me to be synonymous. Because CCD Halbbildsensoren (for A1), I can sometimes do not imagine. There would then yes 6 of them available, for both 3 and just 3 for odd lines ;-)) At least, the CCDs of A1/G1/H1, as in many other cameras synonymous, interlaced read out.
Here is an explanation of the 25f mode:
http://www.videomaker.com/blog/2006/11/181-initial-thoughts-of-the-canon-xh-a1-and-xh-g1 Yes, that CCD read out line by line, is so familiar to me, and "guest" since I was probably misunderstood. If you see an opportunity, a few seconds with Avisynth deinterlacetes material in rapidshare etc. m2t as upload (eg cars, anything with fast motion), that would be nice.
Antwort von efact:
Searching on the Internet have shown that it is actually synonymous videocameras CCD sensors are of the house can read interlaced. Disadvantage: they are so highly specialized that they and only they can not synonymous with progressive as CMOS.
Therefore: difficult to imagine that the A1 so "progressive" can read like a particularly progressive and again being able to work only as CCD
Antwort von deepbluetube:
I see exactly the same way, with my knowledge CCDs as opposed to first CMOS times not so interlaced rows can be read. Presumably, ie 50 times / s progressive in a buffer read, then the of the i-method from the 50 fps overall matrix alternating times the straight and after 1 / 50 sec. the odd lines are weiterverwertet.
Glaub 'ich nicht. See next up, see WoWu. 50 does not create a full-chip CCD and CMOS is not synonymous (in the consumer sector). Either come from 50 fields and the chip then synonymous so it's tape, or are 25 interlaced frames and the the camera then depending on 2 fields. Or, at best, creates a (Canon, according WoWu) chip a little more than half for each of the 50 fields to read and it mixes the Camera then something for every two fields in a frame. What of the three variants happens seems to be of Camera Camera quite different and mysterious, so if you want to read the whole thread, which I here angezettelt hab '.
So I would summarize all times (which I have learned ...).
Antwort von efact:
It is expected in the consumer area in this band actually an internal problem. And WoWu is right, a truly progressive readout, no preference of which sensor is currently not common
Antwort von DeeZiD:
It is expected in the consumer area in this band actually an internal problem. And WoWu is right, a truly progressive readout, no preference of which sensor is currently not common And if it is.
The EX1, the HV20, the HVX200 or various new and others are progressively selected.
In EX1, the HVX200 and the HV20 then you have a nice as synonymous nor the possibility without interlacing progressive Irrpfade to save it.
Gruß Dennis
Antwort von PowerMac:
So most of the reading frames is not straight. My old DVX makes the last five years (mine is only four years old). About EX1 works with internal 1080/50p. The entire Sony studio system and internal cameras work with 1080/60p.
Antwort von TheBubble:
First comes the Studio:
Many CCD camera are interlaced CCDs. From them can be either an upper or lower half read. Internally, this loads the two rows adjacent to each other up. Depending on whether you have two rows above or below summarizes the way, we obtain an upper or lower half (one line is always non-use, whether it is above or below depends on what field you choose). Since this sum as a vertical lowpass filter suppresses unwanted man synonymous same interlace flicker s.horizontalen contrast edges.
Now that some cameras with three CCDs have interlace, it is possible, despite the use of interlace CCDs, a better Vollbild to create than simply read out and a half every second line to interpolate. Here we read, for example from the red and blue CCD and the upper half of the green CCD half the lower one. Per color must now still interpolated every second line, but the other, each line has now synonymous real values (of at least one color channel), leading to a higher luminance resolution can drive (if the colors in the scene are suitable).
It may be synonymous, or other similar methods may be applied to interlace CCDs with even better to get full. It came to me just on principle, as something to be addressed.
In addition to the interlace CCDs are synonymous progressive progressive CCDs or CMOS image sensor. Here are always full and the half out, if desired, subsequently generated. A low-pass filtering should create fields of synonymous held to interlace flicker to be avoided.
That was the recording, now the store:
As always synonymous with frames you come, you want to save, as such, of course.
Practically applied two variants: either as a real full movie with full codec (which is basically obvious variant), or as with a full Interlace-Codec/Dateiformat (for compatibility reasons, for example, if no full-variant in the specification of a recording format has been with ).
The latter does so because two delayed for a half-interlace codec to predict a full with the familiar Kammartefakten are intertwined. Roughly speaking, the interlace artifacts such codec with only particularly well. Therefore it makes synonymous not matter to him as a genuine input frames to be delivered.
This method, as a full interlaced file to save is used for compatibility reasons. Where appropriate, you have to cut its software by hand to announce that it is full-screen recordings. The frames remain, despite storage than interlace File receive.
Antwort von efact:
So there is obviously everything. But we do not talk more of Consumercamcordern around ¬ 1000 - what with Vollformatsensoren allegedly creating 25p, or not so entirely, that is the question. And yes 25fps still just do not particularly worthy of discussion.
Antwort von Axel:
So there is obviously everything. But we do not talk more of Consumercamcordern around ¬ 1000 - what with Vollformatsensoren allegedly creating 25p, or not so entirely, that is the question. And yes 25fps still just do not particularly worthy of discussion. What is it for a Gewäsch? What is not debatable? If the above
does not debate? I wonder if anyone of you critics ever schulterzuck 25fps of a HV20/30 has seen. Then you would fall down the monocle.
Antwort von efact:
Please do not lose monocle and no further discussions about 25p. Is not that recently in the film look thread extensively been discussed?
Antwort von PowerMac:
Cool. Today I heard the word "monocle" heard for the first time. Thanks s.diesen thread.
Antwort von WoWu:
Phew, the Tread has a few fast turns behind. Because I am a few times but otherwise well intentioned as I understood, maybe a couple of corrections:
I'm not quite believe p could not be transferred .... I'm just think 1080p is quite in HDV environment problems with bandwidth. 720p is now since the first days of HD on any topic and synonymous enough chips into the native can do.
But even at 1080p, the air is pretty thin.
Still, for me the chip nor the conclusions of cognition, as well transmitted. For a-chip solutions must never forget the loss of resolution by Farbmaske be turned off. And so there are usually already realistic clues to the transmission can be close.
In terms of Canon F format, the Academy for Television and Film Munich Division II testing technique employed and is synonymous to the conclusion that ca. 2x 800 lines instead of the usual 540 lines of a picture can be used.
I've long since stopped me on the details of (listed as synonymous)'s test on the Internet to leave. Colorful pictures and a lot of noise and smoke.
So, without the thread again to life, the question was actually starting to p or i and transferring.
This can really only say that MPEG (and is what HDV) only defines the bitstream and there is no way a decoder notify any specificity.
Therefore, the signals are not synonymous as somehow mysteriously transferred to either the HDV, it is 1 or 2 and this are the packages that are clearly defined ... this has only a few synonymous with i or p to be done. Is it just nothing HDV1 or 2, it is just another format that only the decoder can be read, if the decoder manufacturer supports this format. But he only supports the standard, there is no guarantee given that such synonymous readable format.
Therefore my approach, such as 1080p format, only just under the magnifying glass to take before you believe anything ... A new trick has JVC else, as they beginning of 2008 models HD5 and HD6 are brought out.
As in the thick descriptions printed pointed out that the camera can output 1080p and just completely hidden in the texts is to read that this is only a de-interlaced 1080i version of a record is.
in the 720, however, I would at the current state of the art really believe every p. (except 24, because there is actually no specification are synonymous). But this is now a separate issue.
Antwort von DeeZiD:
With the new JVCs it should even be skuriler! : D
The CCDs will be read progressively.
But it will reinterlaced and output as 50i.
Who wants to have progressive must use HDMI. This is the Picture deinterlaced again!
Upside-down world, right?
Antwort von WoWu:
But, as I said, believe only what is reliably researched. Most tests are not worth the paper on which they stand. Unfortunately, the company always intransparent with the information and the marketing strategists increasingly louder. But the testers in the colorful magazines and Internet forums synonymous not know more than the marketing strategists persuade them. therefore, must always be there plausibility. Or just good people who share in the hands and even with good people recognized error happened yet (see AJW and the unrecognized Auflagemaß the EX1). Only this is already a different level than the line filler tests.
But at 1080p, it is still really exciting for a while, because what the company still chooses to do so ... Always calculate ....
Pity that it has come.
Antwort von deepbluetube:
I now get slow like me a thing or two times m2t detail. I would really like to know times, which in "my" m2t EXACTLY it is. frames, fields, timestamp code per field, line, ... Preferably, I would really field's field of view. Has one of an idea for a tool?
Antwort von WoWu:
Yes clearly, MPEG2 Sezifikationen and implementation instructions. Does MPEG. 1433 pages. Each bit is defined as:
That's the beauty of standards.
Have fun
Antwort von TheBubble:
Preferably, I would really field's field of view. Has one of an idea for a tool? A transport stream itself is rather uninteresting, which is interesting is packed streams (Audio, Picture, etc.)
Two fields will always be a frame and combined synonymous compressed together. Therefore, the time frame is the smallest "unit image".
The syntax of the bitstreams is published, so such a tool is basically nothing in the way. The effort is not to be underestimated, especially if you are still in the specification (s) must be trained.
Antwort von TheBubble:
I'm not quite believe p could not be transferred .... I'm just think 1080p is quite in HDV environment problems with bandwidth. 720p is now since the first days of HD on any topic and synonymous enough chips into the native can do.
But even at 1080p, the air is pretty thin.
We are talking about 1080p at 25/30fps? This can be synonymous "consumer" cameras with a progressive image converter.
Antwort von WoWu:
So? what?
And please do not again "FullHD" .... That we now know now.
Antwort von TheBubble:
So? what? I am:
The HV20 has a progressive CMOS image converter. The camera has a progressive 25fps mode. Only for the HDV compression is a progressive frame as a frame of two fields treated.
Antwort von WoWu:
And where should the 1920x1080 native Comment? In the resolution, no preference in whether or not two halves is to be without much sound and metadata for over 25 Mbit / s .... HDV hear but not later than at 25 Mbit / s on .... what has the DV20 as data? ...
Furthermore, one may of the 2.8 or 2.9 Mpix Boxhorn Jegen not to leave ... for the Bayer mask ever go around. 40% down .. what remains, 1.7 Mpix .... is therefore not the front and rear.
..... Not on the marketing slogans for fall ....
Antwort von TheBubble:
And where should the 1920x1080 native Comment? From the used CMOS course. According to specification are 2,070,000 pixels in 16:9 operation. 1920 times 1080 = 2073600.
In the resolution, no preference in whether or not two halves is to be without much sound and metadata for over 25 Mbit / s .... HDV hear but not later than at 25 Mbit / s on .... what has the DV20 as data? ... What has Resolutionmit the data of a transport data stream or recording to be done? -> Erstmal nothing.
And if the internal data rate of uncompressed still image is meant: The course is well above the speed of the generated MPEG-2 file.
Antwort von TheBubble:
Furthermore, one may of the 2.8 or 2.9 Mpix Boxhorn Jegen not to leave ... for the Bayer mask ever go around. 40% down .. what remains, 1.7 Mpix .... is therefore not the front and rear. Now it is at once about the pros and cons of 1-to-chip 3-chip cameras? I thought this is not supposed to manageable amounts of data recording 25fps progressive?
Antwort von WoWu:
So now let us not again start from scratch:
Reading helps:
Farbmaske of the chip resolution deduct.
That has nothing to do with advantages or disadvantages of 1-chip or 3-chip to be done.
The mill has just one chip and if you are sharing the Farbmaske away, do you not even on the required resolution ... finally makes the camera so ur not black and white.
What has Resolutionmit the data of a transport data stream or recording to be done? -> Erstmal nothing. You're good man .... Of course, the data with the TS what to do:
1920x1080 in 8 bits + 1 / 2 to 8 bits Chroma + Sound + metadata ..... want everything but finally be transported.
Even if the camera with 4:4:4 internal work would you use it absolutely nothing, if you from the FW just tired 25 MBit rausbekommst.
But please, that is synonymous already 1929x1081 times been treated ... please read ...
Antwort von TheBubble:
Farbmaske of the chip resolution deduct.
It is in this debate is NOT trackable details, but to processing pixels! For further image processing - and that was it before - it is completely no preference whether the 1920x1080 RGB pixels with the help of three sensors, a sensor or a test pattern generator can be generated.
1920x1080 in 8 bits + 1 / 2 to 8 bits Chroma + Sound + metadata ..... want everything but finally be transported.
Even if the camera with 4:4:4 internal work would you use it absolutely nothing, if you from the FW just tired 25 MBit rausbekommst.
If the (lossy) compression levels forgets comes naturally to you strange results.
Antwort von WoWu:
The Kompessionsfaktor of MPEG is now no longer a secret or you meinsst that they set up for 1920x1080 or suddenly with 37er GOPs work?
Antwort von TheBubble:
The Kompessionsfaktor of MPEG is now no longer a secret or you meinsst that they set up for 1920x1080 or suddenly with 37er GOPs work? Sorry, there are correlations sought, where none are. Therefore, only a few brief comments:
Firstly, the factor of MPEG compression is not fixed. Secondly, if it adapts, it does so only rarely on the Group of Pictures. Thirdly, the HDV recording format used in 1080 has a very clearly defined Resolutionund transport stream data rate, which has the MPEG encoder to subjugate. And Fourth: That has nothing more with progressive or interlaced to do.
Antwort von TMaekler:
Firstly, the factor of MPEG compression is not fixed. No, but with standard HDV 18:1 down.
Secondly, if it adapts, it does so only rarely on the Group of Pictures. Therefore, HDV 1 synonymous a GoP of 6 and HDV 2, of the 16th .... because such matters, as you say does not have the GoP regulates.
Proposal: Proposal for improvement Reich'einen MPEG, if you can make it better.
Thirdly, the HDV recording format used in 1080 has a very clearly defined Resolutionund transport stream data rate, which has the MPEG encoder to subjugate. Say I do ... only that of the MPEG standard, unlike the personal computer seated encoder provides no opportunities, standard deviations from the Party.
You are dealing here with a fixed standard required to do and not with a Bastelecke for programmers.
And Fourth: That has nothing more with progressive or interlaced to do That I said I do not synonymous, it is simply the data rate at 1920x1080 with the given parameters for HDV.
I do not know why you always on i or p apart. Your sensor is described as the no longer ago.
And now do not start again with 1-chip or 3-chip on .... The mill now has only one chip times, but that makes Color .. So you have to calculate the Resolutionauch so ...
In demand: Basics image sensor to read.
Antwort von WoWu:
. /.
Antwort von TheBubble:
No, but with standard HDV 18:1 down.
I'm fairly confident that there nirgens is 18:1, but a proportion s.der total data rate is fixed. The MPEG compression may be determined synonymous higher, then just add Füllbits ...
Therefore, HDV 1 synonymous a GoP of 6 and HDV 2, of the 16th .... because such matters, as you say does not have the GoP regulates.
Right, does the encoder is generally not synonymous. Why shorter GOPs now sometimes used, and when extended, and how and why what and when appropriate, although I could now motivate, but since you anyway somewhere will object, I prefer to leave it.
Proposal: Proposal for improvement Reich'einen MPEG, if you can make it better.
Ahja.
Say I do ... only that of the MPEG standard, unlike the personal computer seated encoder provides no opportunities, standard deviations from the Party.
The "standard" for the home PC will allow deviations from the standard information? That would be a great standard, so to speak, a self ...
You are dealing here with a fixed standard required to do and not with a Bastelecke for programmers.
The encoder is never required. Even with no MPEG format. Only the structure of the bitstream. What the comparison with a Bastelecke, is a mystery to me.
That I said I do not synonymous, it is simply the data rate at 1920x1080 with the given parameters for HDV.
Ich geb's almost on. 1920 -> downsampling -> 1440, this must be due to HDV Camera at this first happened. Then MPEG ...
This is nothing but first with the image sensor to do ...
No, I'll give it in.
I do not know why you always on i or p apart. Your sensor is described as the no longer ago.
I believe nothing of the things I wanted to say, has arrived. But we leave it.
After all, we have now rotated in a circle soon and talk about things, of which only was no speech.
Antwort von WoWu:
No, no objection .... I just do not understand why you want to reinvent HDV and not yet of Leonardo Chiariglione the team of experts were appointed are.
Of course there are other means than the GoP in order to change bands. As you can see, however, this is quite an effective means.
The MPEG compression may be determined synonymous higher, then just add Füllbits ... Which would make sense, except for image degradation contribute.
The "standard" for the home PC will allow deviations from the standard information? This was not related to the default but you can of course be of any deviation from the standard program, as long as you are synonymous to the corresponding decoder to tinker ...
Only one, the standard decoder corresponding savvy then no more.
The encoder is never required. Even with no MPEG format. Only the structure of the bitstream. The decoder follows necessarily from the definition of bitstream. Only the implementation is not up to the last detail required. However, "good" implementations always with the reference implementation of synchronized.
[code: 1:569577 b581] Downsampling [/ code: 1:569577 b581]
Suddenly it is no longer of 1920 the question?
This is nothing but first with the image sensor to do ... Read more .... 3x explains! Basics image sensor ... !
No, I'll give it in Good decision
[code: 1:569577 b581] talked about things, of which only was no speech. [/ code: 1:569577 b581]
.. good times that we have talked about that.
Good night.
Antwort von PowerMac:
Now in South America should be synonymous night.
Antwort von TheBubble:
Before you give me ignorance assumption, you should practice self-criticism:
With the term "bandwidth" do you use sort of spongy. The distance between two frequencies, you can in this connection so tend not to think, therefore I guess you mean transmission rate or data volume / s.
GOPs have not much to do. A larger GoP can only improve and Kompressionseffiziens to a higher image quality, since more redundancy can be exploited. Large GOPs synonymous but have drawbacks. But all that you have not written.
The actual data rate adaptive control is generally done on the quantization.
No, no objection .... I just do not understand why you want to reinvent HDV and not yet of Leonardo Chiariglione the team of experts were appointed are. Can I like to propose.
The MPEG compression may be determined synonymous higher, then just add Füllbits ...
Which would make sense, except for image degradation contribute.
The sense would be the required data rate, in order to meet the standard.
This was not related to the default but you can of course be of any deviation from the standard program, as long as you are synonymous to the corresponding decoder to tinker ...
Only one, the standard decoder corresponding savvy then no more.
At least one point on which we have achieved consistency.
The decoder follows necessarily from the definition of bitstream.
Not necessarily complete, in a rather non-critical areas where errors can not accumulate (multiple compression / decompression aussser once neglected) can be synonymous to freedom.
Good night. Good night.
Antwort von TMaekler:
Hello, you eich rotates in a circle and that makes the history of HDV may determine what the view of other ways easily distorted.
Because of the JVC HD Cams especially the new HD5 and 6 models are always cited.
The JVC especially the new cams are no longer the HDV specs and have a single mode Conformal HDV files to write to via firewire for further processing are stored. All other filetypes especially the new LOW synonymous variant on the SD media can be recorded is not subject to the HDV specs.
And it is a great error to think that the codec Mpeg s.dem HDV standard must be guided. Rather, the HDV offshoot Specified a part of MPEG specs say its a preset. The same applies to the AVCHD crutch in accordance with all sides open s.h264 part x-oriented.
This can and want the Manufacturer is not s.deren opportunities but rather s.deren will and why should I want when I Cams with this performance by a multiple of the price of Consumercams s.den man must bring.
Antwort von WoWu:
Absolutely right ... only entrance was once again a question in 1080p HDV to transfer and the issue was then placed in the component A, the HV 20 has no chip allows the 1080p and B even if it were, it does not fit in HDV.
I'll give you quite rightly, that HDV is quite unnecessary limitation and represents that it is more secure, other reasonable procedures exist, quality s.den customers.
Only Manufacturer of course, synonymous to security planning and the associated market acceptance and not only among customers but synonymous with the companies that support the format.
Customers, as the broadcaster want to achieve, is no longer a supplier of only relying on them, which I well understand.
I think these are the reasons why standards are created.
But that the Manufacturer synonymous are interested in the step to a good quality with a correspondingly large number of "innovative steps" to divide has ultimately maximize profits with little to do. That may indeed be justified synonymous. My only reproach is that the customer just things on the packaging vorgaukeln, which are not included.
The problem with the "broader" formats is also the question of who supports the format ..?
See synonymous the current discussion of the EX1 .... without Sony's proprietary software runs as little ... and the criticism is worthy enough. Now imagine such a thing once in a wide circle before consumer.
Synonymous Therefore I think that the H.264 variant (not AVCHD) of MPEG much better (because considerably next) is specified as MPEG2 and steps to improve standards within the fast possible.
(If synonymous because then finally once 1080p50 would be defined).
From proprietary solutions, I think not very much, because tomorrow they may change frequently and old versions are no longer maintained. This compares to just such solutions, such as MPEG2, s.dessen improvement over 15 years worked, with the result that there is now little more something to improve there and a maximum quality, in full compatibility is achieved.
Antwort von TMaekler:
See synonymous the current discussion of the EX1 .... without Sony's proprietary software runs as little ... and the criticism is worthy enough. Now imagine such a thing once in a wide circle before consumer. But now we told you when I AVCHD Files of Sonywith see where the Panas. Vegas even has the beginnings of the Sony Avchdunterstützung only serves files as they are of those of the Panas are well distinguished.
And it is what it is like MPEG2 and even had his time in front of you and h264AVC is coming but the current performance of these systems, max. as an archive and distribution format its authorization.
And it is now clear how Kloosbrühe, the cams may be synonymous 1080p only, they may not be in this price class, which I as a manufacturer will not my Profilinienast saw. ProfilinienAst super word as my gg *
Antwort von Axel:
And it is now clear how Kloosbrühe, the cams may be synonymous 1080p only, they may not be in this price class, which I as a manufacturer will not my Profilinienast saw. ProfilinienAst super word as my gg * Jesses, but your rates are synonymous deinterlaced!
Antwort von Jan:
@ TheBubble - the semi-HDV SonyHDR FX 7 used as a public Cleavid CMOS sensor with 1080x960 (Sony is in internal documents), one might predict synonymous think they have a 1440 or 1920 CMOS has. I have no exact knowledge of what the Canon HV 20 & 30 for a sensor really starts - but it must not be 1920.
It would have been unusually why 3x more expensive Sonyeinen significantly worse than the HV CMOS 20 & 30 has. I think the companies fib a little bit with us ....
VG
Jan
Antwort von WoWu:
@ Jan
"fib" was really very kind words ... and reflects a lot of indulgence. I would be in the choice of my words as you would, not so lenient.
@ Host
But now we told you when I AVCHD Files of Sonywith see where the Panas. Vegas even has the beginnings of the Sony Avchdunterstützung only serves files as they are of those of the Panas are well distinguished. Precisely this is the core of what has been described previously.
AVCHD is not the default !!!!!! This makes the company pretty much what they want and only use parts from the standard.
And that is precisely the core of the defect!
MPEG4 / H.264 AVC is the default.
But while there is still editors, be it in magazines or on the Internet, in their texts do not know the difference and camcorder, while the H.264 support, but not the proprietary AVCHD format, not as a quasi standard described, it will probably still take a while until we really consistent and dependable qualities.
but the current performance of these systems, max. as an archive and distribution format its authorization.
Do you like such a silly but not persuade. This is Pfeiffer in a forest and a dangerous mixture of ignorance and hope that everything stays as it once was.
And it is what it is like MPEG2 and even had his time in front of So, if I have understood correctly you mean, MPEG2 is really coming?
Well, I do not know whether much optimism then synonymous will find its fulfillment. Look at times the range of current models .... except for a new housing for the HV30 has a new model in HDV in the consumer area of where Sony.
Maybe here and there yet another model, now is not so overwhelming vergenenwärtigt but the new came in MPEG4 area.
The time has already shown, while the trend is ...
Antwort von TMaekler:
But Mr WoWu the dispute but no man. There is no question that there is a change in direction h264AVC give it everything is subject to a certain period and for the ordinary consumers, it is just as already described. The cams are cut as only the possibilities just yet as in price / time / performance comparison should be. Likewise, we had already in the transition from SD to HD format based on the HDV specs. That the Manufacturer in the direction of the AVCHD cams Cardbasierend produce s.Unwissen Mainly it is the consumers and the ability to hold down costs. Browse through the forums are full of contributions from users of this new generation the Cam with the AVCHD cams still have the problem that they do not know what to do with the raw material and they are suddenly the cost of überollt entered in the purchase of additional hardware and software.
Beginning of 2007 there were people with a Dual Core E6600 uptodate. Today, it turns out that you're struggling with a quad you have to be in the timeline the AVCHD files into FullHd RT can edit and even when only one lane.
Be it you're right it will come and people will buy as I only synonymous until then, my new HDV Cam has abandoned the spirit.
And it is synonymous in the consumer area are of no new Sonyvermutlich Cams Mpeg2 based but more developed in the Pro League and already Sonyand Canon thank God, are not the only manufacturer.
Antwort von wolfgang:
Browse through the forums are full of contributions from users of this new generation the Cam with the AVCHD cams still have the problem that they do not know what to do with the raw material and they are suddenly the cost of überollt entered in the purchase of additional hardware and software.
Good, which were synonymous, but before the purchase can inform - since we preach for some time the problems with the workability in the case of AVCHD.
Beginning of 2007 there were people with a Dual Core E6600 uptodate. Today, it turns out that you're struggling with a quad you have to be in the timeline the AVCHD files into FullHd RT can edit and even when only one lane.
Yes, this is a huge problem - the 1920s AVCHD is harder to machine halt again as the AVCHD 1440er, and people want to stop synonymous always happy to cut natively. And the Intermediate codecs are always synonymous halt them an abomination - the main thing is that it is no more tape, the main thing is that modern man is underway. The bellyaching comes after the purchase.
And it is synonymous in the consumer area are of no new Sonyvermutlich Cams Mpeg2 based but more developed in the Pro League and already Sonyand Canon thank God, are not the only manufacturer. HDV will come a time, before the latest HDV camcorders from the market will still hold many monoplane, presumably with devices such as a HV30.
Antwort von TheBubble:
I have no exact knowledge of what the Canon HV 20 & 30 for a sensor really starts - but it must not be 1920. The HV20 has a 3 megapixel CMOS the class with Farbmaske. What Farbmaskenanordnung is used, I do not know. When shots are 1920x1080 which uses about 2 megapixels (the remaining pixels are located above and below the recording and photo mode can be used).
Antwort von kowi:
... AVCHD is the 1920 halt again harder than the edited AVCHD 1440er, and people want to stop synonymous always happy to cut natively. And the Intermediate codecs are always synonymous halt them an abomination - the main thing is that it is no more tape, the main thing is that modern man is underway. The bellyaching comes after the purchase.
HDV will come a time, before the latest HDV camcorders from the market will still hold many monoplane, presumably with devices such as a HV30. Just so I'll get it from the next above reasons make synonymous! Long live HVD and the HV30!
Antwort von TMaekler:
Eh professionals working with HDV and not with the respective castrated Poppe AVCHD cameras ...
Antwort von TMaekler:
Professionals working with all ... (But not with HDV)
Antwort von Axel:
Professionals working with all ... (But not with HDV) Troll drivel, which has been quite some time is off topic. Create a new thread but for pixel counter and the professionals who have consumer formats like Abla. And please register so that you get to take time, "guest".
Antwort von Bernd E.:
Professionals working with HDV ... ... with everything ... but not with HDV ... Professionals working with the format used for each contract s.besten suited to the customer, or simply desire - whether it is DV, HDV, XDCAM HD, or what it is all still so. Only this debate really has nothing to with the topic of the thread to do so.
Gruß Bernd E.
Antwort von Jan:
Canon talks of 1920x1080, if you look at the sensor Resolutionder & HV 30 watch is not the synonymous throughout unwarscheinlich. But you should always be careful - the advertising slogans are not always the truth.
Especially when the 3-chip HDV can more easily understand that there None a 1440x1080 sensor can have. Canon uses so synonymous with the XH A1 (or H 1) a horizontal pixel shift to the correct numbers to obtain.
VG
Jan
Antwort von Axel:
Canon talks of 1920x1080, if you look at the sensor Resolutionder & HV 30 watch is not the synonymous throughout unwarscheinlich. But you should always be careful - the advertising slogans are not always the truth.
Especially when the 3-chip HDV can more easily understand that there None a 1440x1080 sensor can have. Canon uses so synonymous with the XH A1 (or H 1) a horizontal pixel shift to the correct numbers to obtain. Either way, you compare this with other cams, compares the images, and can be satisfied. Neither for 1000 nor for 3000 euros there is a Proficam, but for Rumraten and the mourning over the shitty HDV determined not synonymous.
Such comments come unbidden into threads, which with this issue at all have nothing to do (you're not meant, Jan). Instead loszugehen and films will drauflos schwadroniert as if you have a degree in media technicians, are the so-called facts mixed up with so much speculation that None of the aspic interested.
Antwort von WoWu:
@ Axel
In regard to the balloons, which are always and everywhere from the swamps to admit, I'm going quite right, but I find it interesting to know what manufacturer I promise, but then do not sell. Again and again synonymous here you can read in the forum that there are no real differences between 1440 and 1920 are seen. Such a trend can be synonymous but not really your goal, because if you with the full 1920 Resolutionarbeitet already sees a clear difference and many consumers, and this will surely Jan confirm purchase "FullHD" because they believe that there is currently nothing better there. Therefore, a critique already permitted. Finally, yes, you have probably synonymous of HDV DV after changed due to the quality and are now synonymous fully informed about HDV, so you have synonymous not only switch the camera operates and colorful images, but you synonymous in the context of your interest with the theory . That you should each along its Intressenlage synonymous grant and not tell him that he should be more pictures and have no interest in him. So much tolerance should happen. Why else would such a platform?
 |
Antwort von Axel:
@ Wolfgang
The Résumé from the whole outward and Her, is that the information on the actually used components and techniques apparently no Con-prosumer camcorder or reliable. If anyone has this sound information, it may indeed s.geeigneter agency to educate the public post.
No, I know not "fully" on HDV decision but continue to questions. I hope you feel of me personally attacked. You have me in at least two cases for me valuable information, there is no question that you know it.
The discussion at the last two pages, however, no help, there's something better to understand or improve them, because they are much too general and too superficial. The other readers about the tampering of the Manufacturer enlighten good. So only a high Resolutiongarantiert a good picture? Then we have all built on sand, because no model in the price range can be honest, the chips would be far too expensive. The demand for high Resolutionist in reality, the larger deception, because it says nothing about the quality of the image. The whole Rechenschieberei aims only to this aspect, and all blöken with. The Manufacturer to meet this demand and to lie. As the cat bites in the tail.
The Picture her best camera that is affordable, the HVX has no significant high resolution (see camcorder-Comparison).
Antwort von WoWu:
@ Axel ...
At the core of your statement, we are not so far apart and I'm not even believe that 1920 the better solution. I have a lot of synonymous and probably good reasons, just to work in 720p. In order to take such a decision, but it is very accurate and superior to the pros and cons Schor know. It introduces the theoretical bound by the jungle, not any amateur absolutely must know. But the results are certainly not very interesting.
Such discussions feel sorry synonymous always the grave with zuschiessen called fighters. Although I am not synonymous impartially and make no secret of the fact that I prefer H.264, try me, if possible, but synonymous arguments to feed. Only the sense of the forum may not be truly synonymous, any false fact is irrevocable as distribute it. There are a lot of interested parties who seek information and you should not deprive them. If the correction should be info, someone will find the corrective einspringt. And ultimately it is synonymous nor any ability to choose a thread to read (or not). There are so many threads, I am simply synonymous out because of the sound more and more of the bubbles has been tarnished. But almost every thread has an interesting part synonymous. sometimes more, sometimes even less.
So I would not be your correction generally want to understand but you do balloons with the law, which only serve aufzumischen .. The question in this context would be interesting to clarify why the forum in its form of anonymous registration which concealed. But more "clicks" of course means more business synonymous. As the circle closes again.
But Axel, that's supposed to be synonymous not really a criticism, just what would be a forum without the diversity s.Diskussionen?
