Frage von ayreon:
Hi,
I had the last few years in XM2 and was just sharing of the light sensitivity of the camera very impressed. Because of the Remove the Cassette problem I meanwhile purchased the HG20. This is basically not bad, BUT the Dynamics synonymous as the light sensitivity, are a significant step backwards.
Will it be when the HD cameras synonymous times as a multi-sensor approach, or there is perhaps synonymous in the high range?
Antwort von Manuell:
Hi,
I understand you correctly, you want to know whether it 3CCDs with cameras, or 3CMOS chips, which can record in HD?
So most HD cameras s.ca. 2000, - have 3 CCDs, CMOS, or 3.
Guck dir mal the Canon XH-A1, which indeed the HD successor to the Canon XM2 is.
mfg
Manuel
Antwort von ayreon:
It is alo a matter of time before this technique synonymous times higher in amateur could find their use?
(Sorry, I had the higher models are not viewed in detail had)
Antwort von Manuell:
Well, I do not know, maybe.
But as the cameras in the amateur field is always smaller will probably be closely :-).
Antwort von Bernd E.:
Alo ... It is a matter of time before this technique synonymous times higher in amateur could find its use ... The technique has long been yet found its way from Panasonic, for example, there are a range of HD camcorders with three sensors. In terms of sensitivity to light you should, however, still can not expect miracles.
Antwort von reikel:
Alo ... It is a matter of time before this technique synonymous times higher in amateur could find its use ...
The technique has long been yet found its way from Panasonic, for example, there are a range of HD camcorders with three sensors. In terms of sensitivity to light you should, however, still can not expect miracles. Why 3-Chipper photosensitive than 1-Chipper - the same amount of light (or less, because the prism splits the light beam is so synonymous nor what to swallow, huh?)
Antwort von nachtspion:
I'm just on the same search. Have a VX2100 and am lowlight spoils.
Apparently, there are currently no low-budget camera which can be similar. The Panasonic HDC SD300 (http://www.slashcam.de/artikel/Test/Panasonic-HDC-SD300---Die-neue-Referenz-.html) has 3 chips, but still loud Slashcam lowlight a worse behaved and less Resolutionals Camera chip of the Canon HF100, which is often used as reference lowlight in the price segment below 1000 ¬ to be saddled.
Perhaps it is the new Sony devices (http://www.slashcam.de/news/single/Neue-Sony- AVCHD HD Cams - XR520V HDR - HDR-XR500V - H-7295.html) are soon to appear, behave s.das lowlight of VX2100, XM2 and Co.'s.
I hope so, because I needed to HD (lowbudget) wants to change. But probably I have to wait 1-2 months.
Antwort von WoWu:
@ Reikel
Why 3-Chipper photosensitive than 1-Chipper - the same amount of light (or less, because the prism splits the light beam is so synonymous nor what to swallow, huh?)
Because the photo sensors, a 3 times as large surface and thus be more photons synonymous for the color to be.
It is also often used Bayer's not really conducive to the sensitivity.
With 3-chip is the saturation at about 85%, at Bayer for approximately 50%.
Antwort von reikel:
@ Reikel
Why 3-Chipper photosensitive than 1-Chipper - the same amount of light (or less, because the prism splits the light beam is so synonymous nor what to swallow, huh?)
Because the photo sensors, a 3 times as large surface and thus be more photons synonymous for the color to be.
It is also often used Bayer's not really conducive to the sensitivity.
With 3-chip is the saturation at about 85%, at Bayer for approximately 50%. Thanks for the explanation!
Antwort von Zizi:
The 3-chip technology has advantages but little more?
When I look at a 400-euro surpasses the Sanyo Watching with their
Cmos all up to 2000 euros for expensive cameras lengths in Lowlight!
Or if the JVC HD7 (3chiper) with the HD30 (1Chip) see that there has been a huge surge in the
Lowlight quality done!
Also, the Lowlightqualitäten the prosumer Disappointments like to thank all the extreme!
Especially because the new DSLR (5D) ZBS. Lowlight even better offer arts alls some much more expensive professional Cams!
A HV30 ZBS is hardly synonymous worse in Lowlight as a 7x XH A1s so expensive!
Antwort von WoWu:
@ Zizi
But low-light is now not the only criterion that makes the picture quality.
Antwort von Zizi:
But low-light is now not the only criterion that makes the picture quality.
Da hast du wohl recht! ;-)
Antwort von Shiranai:
But the parade discipline ...
I think until the Consumercams s.Lowlight capabilities of Ü1000 models rankommen ne time still passes.
If yes somewhat synonymous unprofitable for the company, if one with its "cheap" Cam the same results as with nem prosumer device achieved - although this in daylight so partially it is.
What SD300 vs HF100 is concerned I find the SD300 images of the test her a little better - is perhaps a matter of taste.
Antwort von deti:
The question should read "Why are 3 x 1 / 3" sensor is less noise than a 1 / 3 "sensor?"
Let's suppose that each sensor the same amount of area per pixel brings no preference whether it is in a 1 - or 3-chip system is installed.
If you have the signals of three sensors in a picture together, then it is synonymous three times the noise as an independent input included.
Comparison roars to an RGB pixels in a 1-chip system in accordance with the decision Bavaria with its 2.5 only a single pixel.
If somehow a funny bill - so why rush 3-chip cameras with fewer weak light? ;-)
Deti
Antwort von Zizi:
If somehow a funny bill - so why rush 3-chip cameras with fewer weak light? ;-) Who says the she do it?
So if you with an XH A1 in automatic filming rushing images twice as fast as with a HF100!
KA. why but I've tested it yourself ..
See here:
XHA1 car http://www.zizis-blog.com/ISO/XHA1Nacht.jpg
HF100 car http://www.zizis-blog.com/ISO/HF10Nacht.jpg
XH A1 Preset with Wolfgang: http://www.zizis-blog.com/ISO/XHA1ManuellLowlight.jpg
When all was the same light!
Oh here a 5D with a 1:1.4 Lens:
http://www.zizis-blog.com/5D/5DLowLightVideo.jpg
Hard to believe ..
Antwort von deti:
Who says the she do it? The thread starter and the first posts go in this direction and that I did not want to leave uncommented.
Deti
Antwort von nachtspion:
What SD300 vs HF100 is concerned I find the SD300 images of the test her a little better - is perhaps a matter of taste. I actually find synonymous, but apparently can / should the two images in the database does not compare, because the Sd300 in automatic mode settings other than the HF100.
Therefore only a Satisfactory in Lowlight ...
Antwort von Meggs:
So if you with an XH A1 in automatic filming rushing images twice as fast as with a HF100!
KA. why but I've tested it yourself ..
Probably because the automatic transmission of the A1 in automatic mode to gain more aufdreht.
For those who like to buy the A1, with filming not normally automatic, but with individual settings.
The A1 is the HD successor to the XM2, does not cost much more than the XM2 at the time when they came onto the market, and should be an XM2 holder who moves to HD, do not disappoint.
The HF100 is clearly a league below.
Antwort von Zizi:
Probably because the automatic transmission of the A1 in automatic mode to gain more aufdreht.
For those who like to buy the A1, with filming not normally automatic, but with individual settings.
The A1 is the HD successor to the XM2, does not cost much more than the XM2 at the time when they came onto the market, and should be an XM2 holder who moves to HD, do not disappoint.
The HF100 is clearly a league below.
Yes already clear that with the GAIN .. but why is it always yet darker than the HF100?
Even with good winners presets and you can hardly vote has much better picture than one with HV30 ..
Otherwise isses ja a good camera but the image converter bring in my eyes is not the need + what you are expecting the price ..
and the fact a little worse HV30 images can I make it absolutely does not understand why such a hype around these various plastic boxes are made .. Sony's models DETO!
Only Professional Controls do not make a good .. Since I have the HV30 for less at 2500 ¬ and much prefer this one can go anywhere yet synonymous .. I believe it was me with this as well as recordings would succeed with an XH A1.
Antwort von WoWu:
@ Deti
If you have the signals of three sensors in a picture together, then it is synonymous three times the noise as an independent input included. The Störanteil (noise etc.) of the individual chips do not add up but the signal to noise ratio remains at the value of the worst part.
You will therefore only the SNR of a sensor can measure.
Below this threshold, you can so many components to turn, how you want, as long as their values below the value, it is the whole S / N does not change.
In addition, signal to noise ratio so the signal peak.
Do you have more photons, more cargo in the sensors, to produce a synonymous so that a higher signal and thus a greater distance from the noise threshold.
So why rush 3-chip cameras less Because just reinforces the need for an identical image brightness to achieve .... no preference, whether in the luma or chroma in synonymous. Even the white balance is ultimately nothing more than strengthening individual Chromaanteile.
Without the "extra" effort to gain can have the white balance the camera in each color to make noise ..
But it is still synonymous another factor added.
If you have 3 chips a 2 million pixels each with 1 / 3 "per chip then you have to chip in a sensor with 6 million pixels have an area of at least 3x1 / 3" makes an identical pixel pitch to achieve.
Instead, however, the 1-Chipper scarcely larger than the 3-chip sensors, therefore have a correspondingly smaller pixel pitch, because the Fillfaktor usually not changed.
Antwort von Jan:
@ Ayreon - Because I'm Meggen his opinion, you should already be in the same class, Henkel camera remain, and the DM XM 2 with the XH A 1 compare - synonymous of handling her. I do not think the XH A 1 in Lowlight is worse than a dusty DM 2nd XM ...
For test images, you should always be careful of a film in the auto synonymous with 1 / 25 sec, without the other night with 1/50sek program. How much gain is enabled at first sight to be seen not synonymous.
In the current models of recent years but is no longer so difficult, at least in the consumer class. Previously, almost all Panasonic and Canon models in an automatic 1 / 50 made (at Lowlight), activation of the night program halt 1/3-1/6. Long Exposure Sony already had more, so 1 / 25 sec when weak light is used, this program has become synonymous Canon and Panasonic achieved.
Who long exposure enabled, then the 1 / 25 sec reingehauen in weak light in from the 1 / 50 sec in Auto mode, everything is synonymous in the manuals.
Therefore I do not quite understand why it is so difficult - Slashcam synonymous with the test of the SD 300!
Also you can when playing with playback data "to" in the menu at Sony, Canon and Panasonic, the data for shutter, aperture and gain to show.
In Sonyist somewhat difficult because even when consumer HDD and Flash memory leader no manual shutter & gain can select. But here it was, after all, the automatic - the Camera vorwählt.
VG
Jan
Antwort von deti:
So why rush 3-chip cameras less
Because just reinforces the need for an identical image brightness to achieve .... Ok and why more needs to be strengthened? Because of the color filters on the 1-chip system to swallow more light as the prism in 3-chip systems?
Sure 3x2MPixel deliver less than 1 x coloring 2Mpixel. But this has no impact on IMHO Noise (and my assumption was that the active surface area per pixel in both cases is the same size).
But what remains to be clarified would be: What impact has the Bayer algorithm on the noise a computed RGB value? After so statistically not exactly 3 - pixels to an RGB value, but about 2.5. Now, of course the question whether synonymous here is that the noise is always disturbed by s.stärksten pixel is determined or precisely synonymous only proportionally.
Deti
Antwort von WoWu:
Bayer begins already with the fact that R and B on the level of G must be drawn.
The entire Bayer mask is then only approximately. 50% Dättigung compared with more than 80% of the RGB 3-chip. The time that a prism (significantly) light swallows the time has passed since you do not dichroic coated semi-transparent mirror used anymore.
And as for the signal to noise ratio is concerned, it behaves in every single element is identical to the overall behavior. Why should there suddenly physics after the other rules work.
Also we have to keep the influences of all components and should consider not say .. if all the same features would be ... then.
The features are not equal, no preference whether the type of filter, the sensor surface, the pitch size of the photo cells, or the Fillfaktor is.
All parameters are different from each other and the balance sheet now looks significantly worse for the 1-chip technology.
Unfortunately, some are now trying to Manufacturer, the same again in face value and implement trade advantage against the smaller chips with 3-chip. Therefore it is just a very close look, what we actually buys and should not only focus on colorful pictures in any tests left.
From the optical disadvantages of 1-chip technology has not yet talking.
Antwort von Meggs:
Yes already clear that with the GAIN .. but why is it always yet darker than the HF100?
If I were here at Slashcam in the database the 12 lux image of HF100 and see the A1, then I have rather the impression that the A1 is brighter and less noisy at the same time.
Antwort von nachtspion:
If I were here at Slashcam in the database the 12 lux image of HF100 and see the A1, then I have rather the impression that the A1 is brighter and less noisy at the same time. I have the same feeling, but here is the test of Slashcam flawed. As I said here (http://forum.slashcam.de/viewtopic.php?p=340917#340917) already have written, in my opinion, for example, the 12 Lux Picture of Panasonic SD300 brighter than that of HF100.
Rudi, I then pointed out that the test is always in the automatic mode is produced. He explains this with the defective manual control of some cameras. To even compare, you always take the car mode.
What happens then is that really only tested what is the better camera has automatic mode, the camera is not light is stronger. This makes the test in my opinion for many users superfluous.
Probably, one can assume that the automatic function of the A1 is worse than the HF100, but because of the target groups to address both products. The A1 is a bad car mode is not as quickly noticed, because most users everything by hand. The HF100 is fully trimmed to Auto mode, synonymous because they are not so many controls and provides a bad vote would lead to criticism.
That fact makes me s.der complete database of Slashcam doubt. I can understand from this data alone does not buy cases.
It would be nice if the database is also set values to be tested. Sure makes it a little more work, but if a camera with 1 / 25 and the other camera with 1 / 50 will be filmed, because this is not otherwise permitted under automatic, it can be for (semi) professionals are not meaningful!
Antwort von Meggs:
@ spion night,
I have read the thread that you've linked. The argument of Rudi synonymous, I can not understand. If an entry-only offers automatic, which I would with the automatic test. More does not stop there. If a Henkelmann offers manual settings, then I would fully exploit. The test will show what is possible with the current.
So purely out of the basic data, I'm already inclined to believe that the A1 light sensitive than the HF100. In addition to the 3 1 / 3 inch chips, it synonymous with a lens of twice the diameter, which probably costs more than the complete RF 100th
Beyond that, my previous experience: It is what actually s.Schluss as a video result. And this result is much better for me if I am with my XM2 movies than when I film with a small, although perhaps at a good little Lichbedingungen a similar pattern, would provide.
Antwort von B.DeKid:
...... synonymous with a lens of twice the diameter, ....... Ah finally someone who Lowlight synonymous using the diameter of an objective mind - applause!
So the first think I LowLight synonymous with always s.den diameter of a lens. If, in my eyes first s.logischsten.
(Ok, the ToP is synonymous with small diameter optics are synonymous, I am aware - synonymous the size of a chip and etc. that play a role)
MfG
B. DeKid
Antwort von Jan:
Rudi said that for the old models.
There were holding a "long exposure" with 1 / 25 s at Sony, the other holding companies had no night program always been a 1 / 50 sec in the auto made in light of the situation (if night program).
There had to be at Sony "long exposure (no idea how the program currently is, but it has every HD Cam) to make out, then takes the Sonysynonymous 1 / 50 sec at the light.
Meanwhile, all three companies this feature, you must do is look at all the equipment is on. If the ambient light is too much, the back up camera that is 1 / 50 and more autonomous, in the weak light tests but they will voluntarily at 1 / 25 sec left.
Under 1 / 25 is not of the three companies - except in the night program in manual or shutter (which can not be re-Sony).
Long exposure - for weak light = 1 / 25 sec
Yes you can when playing synonymous check - what exposure the camera has taken.
VG
Jan
