Frage von Hannibal76:
Hello,
can someone tell me what exactly the "Cine Mode" in the Canon devices mean?
What exactly will it s.Film changed to conventional recordings with the device?
Thanks for your info.
Antwort von fleischjunGe:
maybe ... yet what is happening in conjunction with PF25 better to be - I think it is, even with small movements, very "schlierend".
Regards
Antwort von deti:
The Cine-mode Canon changed the gamma curve and reduces the color saturation, so that regardless of the video frame rate and slightly more after Interlacemodus film looks. In other words: The look is synonymous in the PP target.
Deti
Antwort von RickyMartini:
The image noise in this mode is drastically reduced, which Farbwolken almost completely eliminated. In addition, skin tones appear softer.
Lowlight When is the difference between the P-and the Cine-mode is clearly visible.
Antwort von Bruno Peter:
In other words: The look is synonymous in the PP target. Only if you also renders!
Antwort von WoWu:
.... synonymous and the Cipping get in the PP of course no longer away.
The power setting in the camera, a white shoulder (roll-off) and thus increases the quasi-dynamic camera. That works in the PP are not more.
Antwort von deti:
.... synonymous and the Cipping get in the PP of course no longer away.
The power setting in the camera, a white shoulder (roll-off) and thus increases the quasi-dynamic camera. That works in the PP are not more. == Cipping clipping?
The dynamic range always remains constant - that is not systemic. Only the mapping of brightness values in coding data to be adjusted.
Deti
Antwort von PowerMac:
.... synonymous and the Cipping get in the PP of course no longer away.
The power setting in the camera, a white shoulder (roll-off) and thus increases the quasi-dynamic camera. That works in the PP are not more.
== Cipping clipping?
The dynamic range always remains constant - that is not systemic. Only the mapping of brightness values in coding data to be adjusted.
Deti This is not true. The dynamic range is with the Cine-functions increased.
Antwort von WoWu:
Deti @
Sorry for the loss of genetic "L" ... ich werd mal looking whether I still find it and send 'it afterwards.
PM is right. What you do is probably moving the function (to the left, as is sometimes done, that is slightly under exposure) and thus a "pseudo" to achieve DR.
The increases in the event, only the noise.
Antwort von deti:
This is not true. The dynamic range is with the Cine-functions increased. Ok, but there is little room in 8bit: Let us assume that the camera normally brightness values of 16-239 provides, then you could in the "Cine Mode" come on 0-255. Have you tried the times?
Deti
Antwort von PowerMac:
You mean something completely different. The dynamic range of the image, the contrast range increased. From five to-god knows what-perhaps six apertures.
Antwort von deti:
Sorry, but since I am now totally in the hose. I have always feature a picture of the transducer data to the encoding of data expected to be (because the same image content, the same aperture and shutter speed and gain synonymous but always the same data from the sensor get out).
Deti
Antwort von Marco:
"Let us assume that the camera normally brightness values of 16-239 provides, then you could in the" Cine Mode "come on 0-255. Have you tried the times?" Most cameras of this kind anyway 0-255, or 16-254. I do not know any (small Digital "), which reduced to 16-235.
Marco
Antwort von deti:
Yep, I thought the date synonymous.
Deti
Antwort von fleischjunGe:
The image noise in this mode is drastically reduced, which Farbwolken almost completely eliminated. In addition, skin tones appear softer.
Lowlight When is the difference between the P-and the Cine-mode is clearly visible. So is the general noise Cinema Mode - synonymous with Lowlight?
Antwort von WoWu:
"Let us assume that the camera normally brightness values of 16-239 provides, then you could in the" Cine Mode "come on 0-255. Have you tried the times?"
Most cameras of this kind anyway 0-255 or 1-254. I do not know any (small Digital "), which reduced to 16-235.
Marco That would mean that "all kids" xvYCC make ... but they do not.
The black level is unfortunately increasing in the digitization has been taken over and analog 1V code corresponds 235th
That is what makes is so xvYCC advantage by allowing the entire space occupied. Where else should the extended color space will be accommodated?
Antwort von deti:
JVC and Sony make xvYCC determined - as is, as far as I know, configurable. At Canon, I am just not sure. But we originally wanted the relationship with the Cine mode clarified.
Deti
Antwort von Marco:
"... But they do not."
Why is theory about theory. They make it just as described. They draw a signal with up to 0-255 (1-254) on. Everyone knows that the camera's signal times per Waveformmonitor verified. While there are obviously synonymous models, the Schwarbereich somewhat sparingly, but all use the area above 235 full.
This is not an extended color space, but these are simply the norm defined by Aussteuerungsreserven. White still remains synonymous defined at 235 and Schwarz at 16th But there are more and more including head-and Footroom. And is used.
Marco
Antwort von deti:
Have the H.264 times as YUV data dump decoded and viewed. It is absolutely no preference as to whether Cine mode or not: The Canon HG20 from your neighbor's office is always full 8-bit - I suppose, a HF100 makes it synonymous.
Now, I might change the basis of the gamma curve of the histogram roughly determine ...
I see so synonymous now confirms my original theory.
Deti
Antwort von WoWu:
Marco ... not.
The digital values below 16 and over 235 provide headroom (up and low) for errors, noise and spikes and prevent the over-or underflow of the A / D converter. The 700 mV spread about these values.
The digital values of 0 to 15 correspond to the negative values in the analog world below the 0 Volt, the super-black area.
The above values of its 235 white values are outside the standard level is, perhaps not rocks, or already no longer allow differentiation.
There were a few more reasons that this area next to keeping with the analog to the restitution had to do.
In fact, there is once more a little analogy, the role and about the knee - or clip features the quasi-space no longer need him to miss.
Precisely in this "gap" is xvYCC uses the rise and expansion areas in the digital values of 1-16 and 241-254 in the chroma-axis and of 1-15 and 236-254 in the luma axis.
Where else would your opinion, otherwise the range for this advanced color?
And where would be the area of Y'CbCr?. And why is not Y'CbCr then as 16 million colors, but only 9.6?
And how else would the HDMI signal to the display look like?
Antwort von Marco:
"The above values of its 235 white values are outside the standard level is, perhaps not rocks, or already no longer allow differentiation." Sorry, but you are lying is wrong. Forget the theory, take one camera in hand and check. I write these things not because I necessarily would like to discuss, but because I experience it daily. Why this is so, it gives me even somewhat schnurz.
Both the RGB values below 16, as synonymous, the RGB values above 235 indicate synonymous nor representable differentiations. I can only say again: the fact everyone knows what they produce and the signals before / during / after editing monitors. I can provide you with terabytes of such material swamp.
Come at last times of this world theorized runter ... Meanwhile, yes RGB signals over 235 in some places itself as a broadcast signal used to land and so on our receivers and TV monitors.
Marco
Antwort von PowerMac:
This discussion is so beautiful and good. But it has nothing to do with the fact that by the cine mode of the contrast is increased.
Antwort von WoWu:
Sorry, I know not, because what you measure, but tell me a look, then where does the color is to be extended?
CCIR 601 and says very clearly: In each 8-bit brightness value is 16 for black and 235 for white, for synonymous over-and underexposure can be mapped.
In Wiki Assessment.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/CCIR_601
http://webs.uvigo.es/servicios/biblioteca/uit/rec/BT/R-REC-BT.814-2-200709-I! PDF E.pdf
And, as I said, as a practitioner then you have to say yes synonymous, where because the xvYCC color space is?
Or there is not synonymous? Or have all those already?
What you could measure as synonymous over synonymous Schwinger or measurement error.
So completely did not you also s.der technique and theory over. Even the car you have to know a few rules.
And these 8 bit usually synonymous You should know.
That is really not new. In case of need .... read.
Antwort von WoWu:
This discussion is so beautiful and good. But it has nothing to do with the fact that by the cine mode of the contrast is increased. Well, Patrick, as we just had to learn, so do not ...:-))
Antwort von Marco:
In the CIRR-601 is, for example, that the remaining values except 0 and 255, are reserved to fix than Aussteuerungsreserve serve. You say it even above:
"... to synonymous over-and underexposure to show them." This over-and under-exposure will be
displayed and reproduced. Thanks to the range of 1 to 15 and 236 to 254 (and of course only as long as they are not synonymous nor exceed this range).
"What you could measure as synonymous over synonymous Schwinger or measurement error." Could, yes. If it is not. A waveform display to read and to transmit the picture is not so difficult. There's
image content inside! And although displayable image content that is synonymous easily zerschießen if you unwisely with codecs handled the rendering process at precisely this area quite valuable clip.
You can not simply ignore the fact that such material every day with those same cameras were produced on digital editing and places will be handled only with reference to theory. I mean, you can already, but will change nothing.
PowerMac Sorry, I listen to now synonymous final.
But for the same reasons I opened up not synonymous, as the Konstrastumfang should be increased. The usable area can hardly be expanded, unless the camera would be outside the Cinemodus more restrictive than other cameras and do the area again until Cinemodus release or in Cinemodus at once more than 8 bit recording. Otherwise, I am quite Detis believe that the contrast range is not enlarged, but otherwise will be mapped. The contrast curve is presented differently to certain areas of the curve more effectively. But within the normal range.
Marco
Antwort von WoWu:
Marco, I was actually more of you as a "housewife Sayings of sunrises" and expects at least your explanation of how to do now with the expanded color space behaves?
I fear that you measure only with the toys in the NLEs, the only estimates show, moreover, the signals in the aforementioned areas
ERROR SIGNALS (since when is an over-swinging one wanted?), Which even the simplest NLEs to produce an image do not use (should be). But when they do, they do not meet generally accepted standards and belong in the realm of Toys.
Antwort von Marco:
Let Wolfgang.
Marco
Antwort von WoWu:
Do you have an answer now or not?
Antwort von Marco:
The answer is s.meinen jobs. The theory does not itch me. We move into completely different worlds.
Marco
Antwort von WoWu:
Let them re-adjust ... then they vote again.
Antwort von Marco:
Then I had many transmitters and many Camera, Player, Recorder hardware and software vendors a lot to do with all the devices to work. Only senseless Gequassel here.
Marco
Antwort von WoWu:
Again relating to back:
You must have read exactly what the increased aperture size leads:
The power setting in the camera, a white shoulder (roll-off) and thus increases the quasi-dynamic camera. That works in the PP are not more. Or is there in practice is not synonymous?
Antwort von Bruno Peter:
I knew it ...., years since the end of the discussion on this issue in the dispute ..., no preference to what forum it is ...
zum Bild
Antwort von Marco:
If the contrast curve "bent" is a white shoulder built, changing the ratio within a defined area, but not the total available volume. The size remains always the same and with the effect on the curve, I use the defined scope there is optimal, where it seems particularly important, but less optimal, where it is less important.
Clearly, this process is within the camera, a 12 - or 14-bit processing offers, right here on the curve and then acts as an 8-bit signal recording, qualitatively more valuable than in the Postpro, where then the 8 -bit signal any new information can be more hergezaubert, where only the contrast curve is changed. But the principle remains the same. That which s.der a job for a flatter representation will be used only by the presentation of a steeper be bought elsewhere.
Marco
Antwort von WoWu:
but not the total available volume. This has only synonymous but Deti claims .. No one except you has said that the 8-bit extended.
@ Bruno
Actually, no one denies that, because each has a g'scheite Recording Color Bars anticipate that for the synonymous Camera authentic.
Shooting signals now, moreover, is either the camera or NLE broken, de-adjusted, not to the color bars set or bad.
What is there to argue?
Antwort von Marco:
"No one except you has said that the 8-bit extended." If I had said I would have written somewhere that contains 256 values at a time would become longer.
You say, the aperture size is enlarged. Power says that the contrast range is enlarged. I am only aware of the "scope". If I were a size scale, which resulted in a higher number of values. But how does it work if I have a curve just another bow, but then still on the same grid must be mapped?
In this context, consideration Detis perfectly understandable.
Marco
Antwort von domain:
Things are changing content over time.
When I look at today with the former Waveformmonitor Watching recordings of HC1, then, the default values are never below 15 (usually even more) and synonymous never 235th
This has improved in recent consumer camcorders generations but quite fundamentally changed. Any value between 15 AND 255 is utilized and is loosely synonymous with accepted burnout in the lights and Absaufen in the shade. Corresponds to halt the popular taste, what can you do?
Antwort von Marco:
Also, the old Canon XL-1 is already up to 254/255 dar. In under 16 I am in the XL-1 but not sure. Is it fine if the first available field and has s.Ende decide how to use according to the purpose to deal with would like.
Marco
Antwort von WoWu:
@ Domain
Things are changing content over time. It remains only the question of where the extended color space should remain and which signaling via HDMI the monitor will indicate that the cameras as what others do what they should not, because the monitors ironless hard limit, if the signaling is not there.
Who benefits from it so if cameras are in a pool area, which the monitor is not any more plays?
And if it really should be, given that some cameras do what they want, then you must synonymous not be surprised that the material of the broadcasters will no longer be removed.
The know why they do not HDV or AVCHD want.
Antwort von Ernesto:
Maybe you should actually essential to come back and not
s.theoretischen Abhandelungen stick, which anyway are not altered. Standard is standard, unfortunately.
If you have the Canon "Cine Mode" uses, put you on auto-shutter fixed and an auto-blur is activated. Auto-Gain can not be disabled are synonymous.
So what on one Page is positive, the others fell back.
It would be easy for the industry, this Misstände to eliminate it but it has no interest,
because this gap should close the expensive cams.
many greetings Ernesto
Antwort von Bruno Peter:
So I like this "Cine Mode" quite well s.meiner Canon HV30 ...
On the "Auto Shutter" does not need to specify so you can 1 / 25 also connect ...
Tomorrow I will be here a little practice ...
I few weeks ago I was in Morocco, I think there will be times, especially in a section of the Western Sahara in the "Cine Mode" record.
Antwort von Marco:
Eben yet gone through the system is material PD1, FX1, SR1, SR5, SR7, UX3, XL-1, XM2 and even EX1 and XDCAM HD - all with a beautiful drawing up up to 109 percent (in the case of the seemingly XDCAM HD Camera must be configured accordingly). Down the way, it is actually slightly different, because it is only in isolated settings below zero times so that not only Überschwingern of the speech could be.
"Who benefits from it so if cameras are in a pool area, which the monitor is already no longer there again?" Many monitors can and do this but. And does it help anyone who can handle it and the scope for editing knows how to use, even if it is then ultimately broadcast should be fairly limited, since not all synonymous broadcaster still in the upper limited signal range. It benefits everyone to the material to FAZen austasten can (well, rather then less, if's a Camera, such as the XL-1 is ...). Each of the end product to specific computer platforms uses. In projections, if a corresponding synonymous player is used (eg PC). The bandwidth of the world beyond the Broadcasting is huge, just a broadcaster, we take them often seem reluctant to note.
Synonymous Therefore one can not say that the cameras do something, not what they should, because such cameras are used for completely different objectives developed quite far with the application spectrum.
"The know why they do not HDV or AVCHD want." Yes, because it is often precisely when the deliverer of such material s.nötigen expertise s.allen corners and edges lacking the required or desired quality. The ignorance in order to deal with the far-reaching signals is actually a critical point, which - together with many other criteria - to the committees (l) uss lead. But who knows it and to deal with it and know about the guidelines of the customer / buyer knows, will have no problems.
And again OT. Today it's synonymous but fun to annoy you ...
Marco
Antwort von Marco:
"a car-blur is activated." Are you as sure? To my knowledge, is merely the (artificial) edges increase reduced. The effect in comparison to the standard mode is softer, but is actually closer s.Originalsignal. The edges can increase synonymous in the post easily be added when it is desired.
And if these canyons below the signal normally really synonymous with RGB value 16 deadline to make, then I again synonymous PowerMacs Info contrast to the enlarged scope, since then the curve in this area into something else can be extended.
Marco
Antwort von deti:
And if these canyons below the signal normally really synonymous with RGB value 16 deadline to make, then I again synonymous PowerMacs Info contrast to the enlarged scope, since then the curve in this area into something else can be extended.
The small canyon using a range of 16 to 254, if the H.264 decoded data. I suspect however that the different behavior via HDMI. That could be because in YCbCr mode of the HDMI interface on the field after CCIR 601 established mandatory. If I 1.3er specification, section 6.6 correctly interpret, the values only in RGB mode will be extended:
Black and white levels for video components shall be either "full-range" or "Limited Range." YCbCr components shall always be Limited Range while RGB components may be either Full Range or Limited Range. While using RGB, Limited Range shall be used for all video formats defined in EIA/CEA-861B, with the exception of VGA (640x480) format, which requires Full Range.
see: http://www.hdmi.org/pdf/HDMISpecInformationalVersion.pdf
Good, but that everything with the cine mode of the camera has nothing to do ;-)
Deti
Antwort von wolfgang:
So in practice is that we - and now in terms of me on our consumer devices - the super-black area off, and the super white actually depict. States - from brightness range we have of the 256 possible values - here synonymous designated as 0 .255 - just usually available 16. .255.
Whether sometime 16. .235 as the "send secure area 'means, is for my applications right, but no preference quite synonymous. Simply because I did not send. What concerns me more interested in is whether I am with my equipment this area, or whether the flat is not. And that's with fairly simple test images (in the bottom left).
And of course it is correct that we in the field of super-white picture information - simply because synonymous 235. .255 still Resolutionin brightness levels allowed. Depending on the image, depending on the setting I use this halt, or I use him. And depending on the image you can see a difference (if 235. .255 addressed and will be used) or not.
True, Bruno is right: we have so often until they are discussed. For starters, sample pictures to see where you can see a difference, and readings from Vegas, can watch it here:
http://videotreffpunkt.com/thread.php?threadid=850&boardid=38&page=5
And a little more explanation from the consumer area, you can read here:
http://www.videotreffpunkt.com/thread.php?threadid=848
And the practitioners were synonymous test pictures such as "Hello World" out with the man's personal equipment check - with Beispieldatein downloads can be found synonymous.
Antwort von Bruno Peter:
Good, then back to the "Cine Mode" ...
zum Bild What has really Conon "geschräubelt" because it does not look bad.
The automatic mode has in the Canon consumer cameras do not particularly good contrast resolution, as Sonyist better, but Canon provides better resolution but the ...
Antwort von deti:
What has really Conon "geschräubelt" because it does not look bad.
This is actually already in the first 3 postings of this thread ;-)
Deti
Antwort von Marco:
The contrast curve is changed (Knee: Low, Black-Stretch).
The cut edges will increase.
The color is changed.
The Color is lowered.
The Farbphase will be changed.
Auto-Gain is activated.
You can still be used 25p.
Marco
Antwort von Axel:
What has really Conon "geschräubelt" because it does not look bad. Really comes to the mode, but only if still in the recording to ensure correct exposure and clipping is avoided. Even when shooting with one without such a mode are the values above 235 are not simply "gone", but can be restored in the NLE, but not in the standard color space, used by many codecs comply. Otherwise I think that consumer is already enough handicap lug and is not yet synonymous with the restrictions of the television world herumplagen need. At Wolfgang's Forum in the picture shown, one could compare the "standard picture" almost as a technical error. The thread shows but synonymous, that the dial with a "mode" s.der Cam is not done.
If you have the Canon "Cine Mode" uses, put you on auto-shutter fixed and an auto-blur is activated. Auto-Gain can not be disabled are synonymous. "Auto-blur" (waiving Kantenaufsteilung) is actually positive (taste). Is it possible for many non-synonymous Cams "Cine Mode" and have results in less "sharp", but "nice" pictures. Auto Shutter and Auto Gain are very annoying.
Antwort von Bruno Peter:
Thank you Marco for your list ...
In my recordings I restrain the shutter at 1 / 25 Sec ...
