Frage von Jan:
Hi,
times today I've just had a little time, various current panel with AVCHD material to be tested.
Again and again one hears of schlieren formation and a significant Nachzieheffekt for AVCHD. Panel freaks me had already pointed out, this is not necessarily s.der Camera must lie, but of pretty much all the video magazines claimed. Wolfgang (video board) had been a long time to choose the right panel noted.
The large mass LCD devices, a few plasma users older devices.
Now tilt normal 50 Hz LCD TV's now time to streaks of Education & Nachzieheffekts baubedingt by its liquid crystals, which can be good s.HD recorded & played the TV to see what with moving to do. Newer plasma `s not have these problems, which have synonymous better black level.
I have with me a full HD Philips 50 Hz, the medium price range, my customers complained about synonymous with the use of a non-AVCHD - So in the case of an MPEG 2 JVC HD Nachzieheffekt & 3 in the schlieren formation.
But back to topic, we wanted a pure high-
Camera Panasonic DX 1 (AVCHD on DVD about 500 ¬) - there may be a naturally synonymous UX Model of Sonygenommen be Blue Ray player SonyBDP S 300 (now about 350 ¬ with 8 Blue Ray shooting) and an LCD Television.
SonyKDL 40 "& 46" W 3500 - 50 Hz
- The entire picture was pretty good impression, only these schlieren formation again when the Camera
SonyKDL 40 "& 46" X 3500 - 100 Hz
- A hammer image, and lo and behold - the Nachzieheffekt (at the 50 Hz "W" models were still visible) was recorded in the same DVD almost not visible, to even better sharpness and rich colors.
One must say that older AVCHD cameras, as the DX 1 nor a strong schlieren Education asserted that the current AVCHD models. Current plasma devices have through their fast reaction times these problems are usually not.
P 720 set s.Blue Ray player BDP S 300 saw with the 1080i AVCHD material much worse, 1080i synonymous wenns half as much s.der Vollbild variant LCD Television & player a better idea. The S 300 wanted at the first reading of the DX 1 DVD namely P 720 auto "purely press" and the LCD to pass.
I believe my customers and now the streaks by the panel more than the camera system coming AVCHD, and the 100 Hz technology really brings. How much of the difference in other companies 50 Hz & 100 Hz, I can not say.
Times we want to hope that the SonyBravia "X" 100 Hz 3500 series will be cheaper soon, so I Picture in an LCD TV have not yet seen, as was my older Philips Full HD with no.
VG
Jan
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Antwort von WoWu:
@ Jan
Interesting execution .... can you please say again, what kind of material you had as a template (p or i, 1080 or 720) because the typical schlieren formation phenomenon is not correct Deinterlasings and so possibly more to draw conclusions from the Monitor as to the format shown, because Monitor the signal goes through a whole bunch of processes, of which the majority is likely to alter the picture.
Who is the course of this process, once committed, will not ask the question why a picture is as it is.
Since the AVC signal due to its higher detail (4x4 macro blocks and 1 / 4 pixel interpolation) of course, a different task than the relatively coarse MPEG2 signal, numerous effects of course understandable.
Only the question we should in this context must, of course what one really wants.
I think that detail is one of the top targets for HD ... only need to display that can be synonymous.
One must, I believe, a codec, just because these objectives best achieved, not the blame for a poor presentation that only the monitors because it can not.
It is slightly as if the blame for the color signal at a viewing on a B / W Monitor the color signal.
I think this issue is absolutely worth it, and next a closer look. Therefore, since I'm going to get more information really grateful.
Antwort von Jan:
Thanks Wolfgang, a variety of magazines always claimed the Schlieren education system is generally s.dem AVCHD content because of the lower data rate (in HDV, it is little or no significant).
It has actually been known previously (synonymous with yourself) that AVCHD data rate with half of HDV can achieve similar results.
Why, I seh s.einem as good as the LCD SonyKDL 46 X 3500 AEP hardly Schlieren formation in motion, even though I already have quite fast direction - at least for HD ratios, these Nachzieheffekte were even older s.meinem was well rated for Philips Full HD ca 2000 ¬ to see? I voted yesterday synonymous times in the TV forums read, testers there are the 46 "X 100 Hz Television with special Blue Ray's" fed ", ie films with a lot of movement - the majority came to the same conclusion when I was the AVCHD DVD similar.
The Camera used Panasonic HDC DX 1 belongs to the 1080i AVCHD cameras on a standard DVD burn (ie 1080i), a Blue Ray player (for example, the BDP S 300) but can play. Yes, unfortunately, only 15 minutes recording time at 13 Mbit / sec on an 8 cm DVD-R DL at but just 30 min. The BDP S 300, but the material is detected than 720 P - very unusual.
HDC DX 1 I can see straight to the original page:
FULL HD 1080i - (1440x1080) - that's probably not right?
VG
Jan
Antwort von WoWu:
Hello Jan.
From a purely fundamental perspective, one can say if it is synonymous only a single monitor can display correctly, thus the output signal out.
In contrast to the tube have the matrix representations to each other, unfortunately, significant differences in terms of color, the lubrication effects and large synonymous fibrillation.
Together, all display types but that it is progressively working matrix displays act. The different video formats must be relevant to the physical matrix display to be adjusted.
This happens in the so-called scalers in which most of the already mentioned de Interlacer included. This is done in order to Interpolationsvor operations (scaling and de-interlacing) with a few losses as possible summary.
Depending on the input signal and the physical Resolutiondes displays this scaling is needed ..... and of course, when an interlaced signal is created, an additional de-interlacing. This is the picture quality, however, already decreased.
The Scaler synonymous over the detection of the input signal.
The scale is the digital signals with a few meters out just yet. On a scale analog signal looks quite different.
Here, the synchronous separation occurs with the clamp, where he detection of Macrovision, etc. After the A / D conversion, the signal on a single color conversion (color space conversion), eg RGB to YCrCb. Also a time-base correction takes place in Spacer, to a decoupling of front-end to reach because LCD and plasma only a very narrow frequency range offer. In the backend of the Scalers will have all basic color settings. (Brightness, contrast, gamma, color temperature, etc.)
In relation to the image brightness must be mentioned that wool usually only 20% of the maximum value and is not from what was recorded. Here is once more trying to the human vision according to enforce.
Another value for the assessment of the new displays is the gradation ... that is the brightness of the course in terms of Eingangssignalampli-tude.
It ensures that the grayscale properly represented.
HDTV signals, according to an ITU Recommendation send or geräteseitigseitig with LO.45 be preprocessed. (BT.709-5). This will at the receiver side a gamma value of 2.22 requires a linear history display brightness. Now, one might speculate on how many actually do, especially against the background of a display so far inhomogeneous penetration. This in turn inevitably leads to unrealistic and arbitrary the light curves following Grauverläufen. Since the display is the curve electronical reproduced leads to significant stage in the lower gray when the Quanti-tion is too low.
Only now put the whole "Bildverbesserer field.
These include algorithms for noise reduction and to improve the sharpness and Luma Peaking how and Chroma Transient Improvement (LTI / CTI).
LCD displays have in comparison to a smaller picture tube Dy-namikumfang. In order not to be visible, the con-trast, depending on image content dynamically adapted. The procedures are known as "histogram processing" well known and have just not directly synonymous with the camera setting for the recording to be done.
Other methods to reduce artifacts such person being reunited effects on LCDs or "False Color" in plasma.
Unlike analog (CRT) displays are MPEG artifacts on matrix displays particularly uncomfortable on. Again, this is counter-measures such as MPEG Noise Reduction implemented.
Each manufacturer has its own actions and thus have considerable differences in the presentation.
There are currently no guidelines synonymous for flat panel displays, as used in the classification of the tube devices were ... eg Class 1 monitors with defined specifications. And Sonyauf the IBC 2007, a so-called Class 1 screen has presented ... So may be that the specifications tighten, currently has the classification of something but only with Sonyzu do nothing and with a standard, as you could get the impression
Antwort von Jan:
Hello,
I did not do everything at 100% understand your level in the area is remarkable, but I'll give me trouble.
No, the DX 1 is a DVD to AVC Camera basis, therefore I am not gone over HDMI, since I'm a version without the camera wanted to play.
The player was no PS 3, so the times I had used synonymous.
Meanwhile there are the Blue Ray player BDP S 300 of Sony Even cheaper (if the action with the 8 Blue Ray Shooting into account (349 ¬), which some companies do). The I used the synonymous in my opinion has a better level than the PS 3 when playing, not only by the 24 P Cinema function (if the TV supports the function). PS 3 and DX 1 AVCHD months before I had tested synonymous times.
So the DX 1 DVD in the BDP S 300, HDMI s.SonyKDL 46 X 3500 AEP and amazed.
I did not want to Klugscheißer, I myself had always wondered just why the Videomags the Schlieren always push AVCHD.
If so, then statements, where something is reingetextet:
It's like the engine of my car not to jump - then yes, the engine is defective, or MPEG 4 is definitely worse, such as MPEG 2 - because it is harder compressed (a Canon HV 30 thread yesterday)
Response times?
So I just do not synonymous, I was never extremely tester, which I leave others. Schaut euch trotzdem SonyKDL X times the number in 3500, I and the customers were there with me, the idea was already impressive, perhaps, it is synonymous to the "Motion Flow" 100 Hz of Sony. It can of course be that other companies similarly good new devices have rausgebracht.
VG
Jan
Antwort von wolfgang:
It is obvious that we in the assessment of a system of the entire Widergabekette abängig are. Although in practice the bad guy is not always very easy ausmachbar is.
When I give schlieren formations WoWu right - something is like to modify or defective deinterlaces before scaling traceable. And LCDs have even halt the reaction, but for both HDV and AVCHD is synonymous for.
And it is always easy synonymous, the counter-evidence to stand: to create from AVCHD footage, with which one sees these streaks, a mpeg2-based BD or HD-DVD BDMV, and there has not Schlieren - na dann wirds probably all other things being equal framework can not s.Quellmaterial lie.
