Newsmeldung von slashCAM: Test: Sony XDCAM PMW-EX1 handling test + test shots for download of rob - 16 Dec 2007 15:56:00 > Panorama pans in daylight in all formats (1080i50, 1080p25, 720p50, 720p25), again all in artificial light at night format with plenty of exercise and as an encore slow and time lapse recordings: Slashcam, the series model of the PMW-EX1 in a number of scenarios tested and the exciting Asked: Will the good first impression from the short test of the pre-certify? The EX1 has the stuff to the new reference class?
Antwort von PowerMac:
As expected.
Antwort von Klaus Zimmer:
At least, enough of this test material Cam. Do I have time tonight purely drag.
Can those who have made the Forum the EX1 his own name and a first impression in a few sentences describe?
Klaus.
Antwort von xc:
Why is 60fps quadruplicate slowdown?
PAL 25 x 4 = 100
That is not even slowing down 3 times ...
Antwort von PowerMac:
Yes;)
Antwort von WoWu:
.. I have 61 times the clip downloaded .... (Zoom on the lake)
Why is the input setting really sharp, and when the zoom is withdrawn, pulls the whole thing (s.Picture 13) in such a blur that you actually s.Picture 26 only DV resolution of good speeches can. Since little contrast in the picture are the signs indicate that the sharpening edges exposed, which is not just for the Lens speaks. Perhaps it is not synonymous ... durchzoombar? Anyway, the result is not really convincing.
I am not yet on the other clips come ...
Perhaps still a query s.die editorial?
If the lens MTF measurement synonymous in before, because this measurement Lines per Picture Hight is still a relic from the analog days, as regards the frequency image was taken and with things like the Kellfaktor had to be handled. This information but now with fixed pixels and data rates, but no real meaning anymore.
Quite aside from that PAL with approx. Lines 400 is, with the Kellfaktor (0.7) is already taken into account. So do 800 lines for an HD Picture no particular impression.
(And what is the meaning of the values
But perhaps there is indeed synonymous MTF values and contemporary figures in LP / mm (horizontal resolution)
Antwort von WoWu:
... record demolished ...
So: what is the meaning of the values 1 and 0.3? Because a lens power of 1 above, it does not give ... Lines at 800 and I indicates the curve so that only 20% were measured lens performance?
Please to explain ...
Perhaps a similar question: I see the QT and copies at Carousel Scene Clip 75 make right onto the back of the brown shield hellish MPEG artifacts on display. Is it synonymous on the original or the copy of the QT? Maybe someone can check?
Thank you.
Antwort von WoWu:
.. equal to another question later, to the above-described Seeszene: The Zoomfahrt ends with a hellish jerk and the provision of a Picture from ... was there any stabilizer is switched on?
Incidentally, the fuzziness is synonymous with the Zoom-opening of 45th Clip
There is no other synonymous, sharp point in the picture to be found so that a focus shift probably has not taken place.
Are there any explanations?
Antwort von highnoon:
Hello Wolfgang
I see the m2v and Szehnen in everything can confirm what you say. Moreover, I have an inexplicable behavior noticed in the clip 61: Before the end Zoomfahrt you can see very clearly `s s.Baumrinde CA and branches in front of the bright sky. But after you described Ruckler of s.Ende the Zoomfahrt the CA `s gone! Very strange!
Greetings Walter
Antwort von WoWu:
Hello Walter
The Ca's I wanted to no longer mention, because I was not sure if perhaps something authentic, but the zoom when Aufzoomen s.See comes right into a pole Picture. The s.Bildrand has so much CA it probably synonymous s.der cortex was the cause. Besides "eiert" the rod into the Picture. This looks slightly after rolling shutter from.
All in all impressed me and not really if the reference to the editor is, well I do not know.
Furthermore tüftele I still s.dieser scaling of the curve around, I know only that as the spatial frequency response is shown. If so he should, then explains the synonymous to blur the image. But wait times what their test lab has to say.
In any event, the enthusiasm, I can not really follow.
Thanks for the hint.
Antwort von highnoon:
Hello Wolfgang
Yes you are right. The rod in the clip 45 provides quite restless from. Somehow, as similar as 25p, 24p material (because slightly jerky), but it is interlaced (comb effect) is rolling shutter sein.Übrigens, synonymous in the Szehne is the Ruckler s.Ende Zoom to notice!
CA `s are really abundant. However, mainly wehrend a Zoomfahrt! (Because of the Zoom s.Ende `s everything is clean again).
Could that mean that the CA `s by Processor rausgerechnet, but during this Zoomfahrt (why always synonymous) does not work?
Very strange the Ganze.Wirklich.
Walter
Antwort von PowerMac:
http://www.deppenapostroph.de/
Antwort von WoWu:
Moin PM ...
yes I know clerical errors ... but you can keep him, searched him synonymous finally found.
What was up because your "expected," to understand?
As expected "good" or expected to "bad"?
@ Walter
That with the CA is quite normal and occurs naturally only in the lenses on. to rely on another page of the other focal figure error ... that is the shadow side of the zoom lenses.
What I am currently not in compliance can bring the Verzeichnungsfehler of the examples and the test board. The do not match. Perhaps yes s.dem the monitor, because the distortion seems to undo.
In the pictures you see Rummel synonymous sharpening the edges again ...
In any event, the thing I would not 7kEUR worth.
Antwort von PowerMac:
The thing is hyped. It is synonymous but good. The test results are a compromise between two extremes. I am planning to buy them. I am simply convince the reviews so far and the technical data s.sich. Even when I'm around at MPEC or MBF in the hand and have durchteste forever, it will be worth it to me. Optics The manual is just a hammer and the big chips with the remaining features are simply better than a Z1 or HVX.
Antwort von rob:
Hello together,
here a few words for clarification:
Theme slow motion: quad is not really. This has just been corrected in the text - sorry for that - we wanted to first material as quickly as possible for all to judge - this can happen in a hurry - is being corrected.
Theme Focus: The EX1 is definitely sharp, above - just ask here again the values from the test laboratory for advice and just (as described in the text), the drawing in the shore area chart.
CA Theme: The white bars of the railing are s.See with full sun on it of course very hard contrast. That chromatic aberrations occur is normal.
Theme Shottransition: Both Shottransitions work with different focus areas. After activation of the transition moves faster than the sharpness of the zoom range. Such transitions are of the chosen zoom obviously quite extreme. In practice, one would tend to choose shorter distances. The examples demonstrate first that the automatic three factors: cut, Aperture and sharpness.
Viele Grüsse
Rob
Antwort von highnoon:
PowerMac
Wow, I'm beeindrukt! What would you all!
Antwort von PowerMac:
Eventually, one has to think very constructive contribution relating to "Deppenapostroph" deleted.
Antwort von rudi:
If the lens MTF measurement synonymous in before, because this measurement Lines per Picture Hight is still a relic from the analog days, as regards the frequency image was taken and with things like the Kellfaktor had to be handled. This information but now with fixed pixels and data rates, but no real meaning anymore.
Quite aside from that PAL with approx. Lines 400 is, with the Kellfaktor (0.7) is already taken into account. So do 800 lines for an HD Picture no particular impression. So, dear Wolfgang,
To be quite accurate to describe this is the unity LW / PH (line widths per picture height), from the famous ISO12233 chart is removed. It will soon have a detailed article on this measurement method, which both the strengths as synonymous describes the weaknesses.
The ordinate shows the contrast, and although relative: ie 1 is the absolute value of the maximum black value minus the maximum white level of the first measurement pairs. That is currently in the Measurement of absolute standard. Somewhat arbitrarily, but in most methods of measurement as is the usual limit s.der, the black-white difference is only a gray and thus defines the system boundary: Thus, most Messstudios here at 30%, or 0.3 per cent agreed. Say if the Helligkeitskeitsunterschied between black and white lines to under 30% of the first measurement falls, the camera s.ihrer border. The manufacturer itself, however, use their information like synonymous only 10%. The system threshold in this method and HDV to (image height x Kellfaktor) approximately at 800 LW / PH.
Values above 1 can occur naturally in contrast, because hardly any camera works without contour. And the highlights accordingly synonymous relative contrast. Those who do not believe, sometimes in the video editing program with a sweep vectorscopes view and then a sharp cartoonist-Effect expect it and then be amazed ....
For those who understand only train station, an article to appear in early 2008. Just are just some other things here in the oven.
Many greetings and good night
Rudi
Antwort von WoWu:
Hi Rob,
thanks for the advice, but CA is not by sunlight but by lens errors. CA is either there or not. By night you can see they just do not.
The notes of the "testing laboratories" are more than poor and give no information about the usefulness of the graphic.
The transition fault, especially in the clip with the man is unfortunately synonymous no other sharp point to recognize. In a Umfokussierung have at least a sharp point in the Picture to see ... is not.
Moreover, it seems as if the hair of the person in the course of the zoom a bit sharper, which would indicate that the optics is not durchzoombar.
How is it with the MPEG artifacts?
I just got the clip 79-2 and yes there is pretty much everything that is not in a Picture may be:
Vignetting, despite CMOS chips and the sky full MPEG artefacts, although very little is in the Picture s.Bewegung .. The noise behavior seems to be usable.
I'm still not entirely clear whether this pixel binning is made or not, s.den lights looks to me quite out.
Also, "as a quality of another star," I really do not know, and the PM is now a buy for me is still not a quality characteristic.
For the explanatory guidance of the "test lab", I would be in the interest of a better understanding truly grateful.
Antwort von WoWu:
Hello Rudi ... Topics have overlapped .. thanks for the advice, it did not yet fully understood, but working on it.
New for me is that no longer depends on MTF would be measured.
Well, maybe differ because the broadcaster and the film people of the testers, or there is already something new, just a shame that companies like Arri, Panasonic and the EBU, which still do not know ... but the experience is probably yes then from the article.
Arri should just learn quickly before the next article appears in the cameraman, because the use or the MTF.
Had so stupid when the old methods of measurement would apply.
Nothing for ungut ..
Antwort von highnoon:
Hi Rob
I quote: CA theme: The white bars of the railing are s.See with full sun on it of course very hard contrast. That chromatic aberrations occur is normal.
Please review carefully times when the clips 61 and the zoom stops 45.Wenn you see little more CA `s even though the sun is shining. This is really interesting is not it?
mfG: Walter
Antwort von rob:
Hello Wolfgang,
briefly relating to Chromatic Aberration: Chromatic aberration arises naturally in the lens - that nobody denies. However, it is far from the subject-dependent, especially when they contrasted motifs (like the bright railings) are much stronger to light than meets motifs with fewer high-contrast range.
Since the Railings direct sunlight reflected here are expected to chromatic aberrations.
Many greetings
Rob
Antwort von WoWu:
@ Rudi
... I now have the hab'mir views. It seems as you would as a process from photography to measure the Dieter Wüller times in the early 2000s and has developed based on (I think) 8 stars based Siemens. Published came in so did a mixture of vertical resolution and MTF. This is true but only for photography, because the vertical Resolutionbeim television is clear: 1080 in HD. The Kellfaktor 0.7 met only for analogue television and was by Mr. kell so identified because horizontal structures with full Resolutionim line system could not display.
Now we have no real pixels and more lines and we have no moving images and photographs, to the extent that we should Mr Kell factor to his Lord and his Wüller 8 or 9 Siemens stars.
The measurement is quite ok, except that the EBU (and the other moving people) to interpret the horizontal and in mm.
Then of course, other values are out, as in the photograph. Arri says that their good example, 35 mm Primes about 80 Lm / mm. The EBU recommends for HD Lenses Resolutionvon a 65 lm / mm with 80% in the center.
I can tell you the times synonymous like Grautafel rüberschicken, because if you put the lens performance to 10% expected, then there is a gray area out of nothing, but absolutely nothing more synonymous.
Sound manner, it is up to about 40%. Below you can not really speak of resolution.
You see, there are differences between photography and moving image.
BTW do you measure the whole thing off synonymous with edges sharpened, because to be ascertained so the lens and not the performance of downstream amplifiers.
Antwort von PowerMac:
(...) And the PM is now a buy for me is still not a quality characteristic. (...) Not yet ...;)
Antwort von WoWu:
@ Rob
hello ... .. Rob there is no way turn over. CA is an optical error in the lens system. It is no reflection s.irgendwelchen objects and is not produced outside of the camera.
Of course, if you land on a black (or gray) is filming, it is not so much on but it is still there!
It is a lens defect!
And around it is pointless to discuss. Or you know someone who is never in sunlight and is filming mainly gray areas?
Only weakness I find that your tests do not testify, or at least point out but the Lens (of another star) will be praised, are already in the first approach the quirks recognizable.
Antwort von WoWu:
@ PM
there have been convincing arguments come.
Do you have any? The pictures do not in any event her.
Probably the handling quite well and probably synonymous Sony usual solid performance.
Waiting times from the NAB, if you then would decide just yet.
Antwort von WoWu:
@ Rudi
Above have repeatedly spelling errors ... Of course there must be lp / mm (line pairs / mm) and not Lm / mm. Reiner typos ... (Gift s.PM).
Antwort von rob:
Hello Wolfgang,
as the text to read, is the combination of sharpness, Lowlightverhalten AND low chromatic aberration is not currently of other camcorders under 10,000 euro.
You can be happy because others think.
Many greetings
Rob
Antwort von rudi:
So, dear Wolfgang,
The Kellfaktor 0.7 met only for analogue television and was by Mr. kell so identified because horizontal structures with full Resolutionim line system could not display. Mr. Kell is not just for opinion to be achieved, but both I, as synonymous Wikipedia
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kellfaktor_ (technology) Just seem to me of you mentioned the differences between moving and still image somewhat petty. These are just other units, but did nothing with the proper measurement s.sich to do.
BTW do you measure the whole thing off synonymous with edges sharpened,
Nothing, we would rather do than that, just is not realistic. First, there is Camcoder the sharpening edges can not be switched off, and then there is the comparability. And secondly, there is hardly someone to sharpen edges without any filming. What should be the measure say? But we would, of course, burning interest in who this "man" is so clever what attaches ...
because to be ascertained so the lens and not the performance of downstream amplifiers.
With a fixed lens has probably used up the entire signal rather than just the lens, so that one can not choose. We measure in any case, the lines at the resolution, which the user finally lands, so if you want even more synonymous with the codec to do so. Anything else would be synonymous nonsense.
Regards
Rudi
Antwort von WoWu:
Where are the objective evidence?
Agrees with the way the graphics are not synonymous, you have in your report.
The MTF is always the value between the brightest (contrast) and the white point minimum.
Now is your yardstick somewhere in between and the points are fairly arbitrary.
The next I move the Mass together the better will be my result. The correct times, I would then slip the Resolutionnämlich.
Antwort von WoWu:
@ Rudi
... synonymous appending a URL Wickipedia makes the declaration is not correct ... it is exactly as what I have described.
Quote:
"If the number of pixels per line equals the number of rows of the image times the aspect ratio, it is clear from their lines and the image frequency points per second and thus the required bandwidth. The Resolutionist but in the vertical direction is not precisely defined. Assuming that it is lower than in the horizontal direction, then the calculated bandwidth in the same horizontal and vertical Resolutionmit a factor between 0.5 and 1, the Kellfaktor, be multiplied. "[1]
.... With regard to the Ablenktechnik were greater for the color Austastlücken down. The aspect ratio was 3:4 and synonymous with the band was not changed. Therefore, it follows with 575 rows and 52 microseconds, calculated a somewhat different factor. But this has nothing with which to do Kellfaktor .....
End of quote
Otherwise, is there anything about the analogy of Kellfaktors. Besides that he was in the 30s was ... true for a time-oriented means of digital technology. No, no, it is already so, as I said .. should I have overlooked something, I ask for a hint ... I schau'dann happy again.
The example with the slats, I could not find Kell.
A word to the measurement methods still ... of course, can be synonymous with photo lenses comparable .... who always uses what then if the broadcast world and the movie people and the camera manufacturers to refer to horizontal and values around 60,70,80 Lp / mm out, and when you will be 800 LW / PH.
Give at least the conversion formula to do so. And anyway, what is with the remaining lines to 1080? This is probably again Kell because the lines on the sensor surface can not see anyway?
That's true but not the front and rear ...
Antwort von WoWu:
... I have the answer to the question of who, without raising his Objektivgüten contrast attaches forgot to answer:
All lens manufacturers such as
It is a matter of fact, Objektivgüten to compare.
Lenses and not with any edge sharpening methods and Picture-cizers nicely.
Such values are namely in the interest of the user, for good and bad Lenses distinguish them.
Against Your 800 Lines see Fujinon broadcast lenses for almost 70,000 EUR with their mickerigen 80-90 Lp / mm naturally pale.
Antwort von rudi:
Agrees with the way the graphics are not synonymous, you have in your report.
The MTF is always the value between the brightest (contrast) and the white point minimum. UUF, tell me your semi-annoying. Between "brightest (contrast) and the white point minimum" how do we pay?
Now is your yardstick somewhere in between and the points are fairly arbitrary. But in fact, clear. Tell me are you blind? If you are the maxima of the minima you get to deduct the red curve. Because the minima obviously not s.Boden up, the curve is thus naturally puts downward. The relative contrast of 1, then from the first x and then determine averages of 30% contrast derived. (x I would have to see)
The next I move the Mass together the better will be my result. The correct times, I would then slip the Resolutionnämlich. Anything else would be synonymous of a miracle, no question, just what do you mean by this? We set the level so as not arbitrary, as described above.
The example with the slats, I could not find Kell. This is a simple example, the procedure to other people here clearly explained so that the whole is not just for your ego-point, but other people might still synonymous imagine what it can. I actually have the detailed description, but then maybe just purely in my article.
A word to the measurement methods still ... of course, can be synonymous with photo lenses comparable .... who always uses what then if the broadcast world and the movie people and the camera manufacturers to refer to horizontal and values around 60,70,80 Lp / mm out, and when you will be 800 LW / PH. Tell me in what world you live? Of course, it can make sense of the lenses sharpness in LP / mm, only uses me nothing if I is not in relation to a CCD set. Since I could even take dpi, which is actually on the same out come, but please wake up now! We test here camcorder firmly assembled with no Lenses and Lens alone. Would you test in a car synonymous prefer to tire revolutions per minute to read, as the km / h? That would be roughly the same. Without the tire size (= CCD / CMOS) brings you this little statement.
Give at least the conversion formula to do so. After so much of the matter, I must understand that you do not really triple vorkauen, (or is that your seriousness?)
And anyway, what is with the remaining lines to 1080? This is probably again Kell because the lines on the sensor surface can not see anyway?
That's true but not the front and rear ... Game Thoughts: Imagine a theoretical Picture times with 1080 / 2 = 540 SW-line pairs before. And now is the best camcorder with the best lens you can get (ie one of the not only in your theoretical dream world exists). Do you believe in true that this camcorder 540 sw-line pairs 1:1 can record?
Or you do not feel quite synonymous deep inside of you inside, young Skywalker - that it is inconceivable that any of these lines after just pixels on a line of CCDs will be back?
Probably synonymous would you deny this, and say that it still goes. What has this to do with Kell? Unlike here anzuwendendenden Nyquist-Shannon sampling theorem provides the Kell-factor is simply a pretty good relationship empirically documented.
But now I reichts s.dieser body, because now it's really too deep. Only as a warning for you: It is perhaps even worse for you: We consider
Antwort von 2LTime:
like why so excited?
gruß cj
Antwort von 2LTime:
ps. to lowlightaufnahmen:
unfortunately there are shots of crowds / evening star szene draussen ect.
much less meaningful as interior shots, as in a
church, a theatrical performance or an interview without any additional lighting in the gang ....
kirmes on the night and in urban traffic sees my FX7 synonymous pointed out at the wedding when the bride and groom are not in the spotlight
bedankt fairly mau.
gruß cj
Antwort von rob:
Hello Guest,
naja, so the hype with a 3.4 to expose it and still have room to 1.9 to have, I find quite strong - but clearly, is an experience value.
But I am sure that if you are looking for something in the network (or wait) anyone with indoor shots will come. What light do you get stronger under 10,000 are not currently. If it turns out, do I perhaps have a comparison to another Cam - but could still take some time - the EX1 is already back at Sony.
Many greetings
Rob
Antwort von 2LTime:
so true ...
I guess times the cam in problematic
interior shots make a good figure is ...
but by how much better it would be interesting to see.
(maybe time for a pd170 run?)
gruß cj
Antwort von WoWu:
@ Rudi
I note the quality of your response is correlated with that of the tests and recommend all those interested the report by Hans Kieninger (ARRI) in the "cameraman" and the White Papers of BBCs, Fujis, Panasonics, etc. and spare me here on this unsubstantielle ramblings again detail.
So much nonsense group of experienced otherwise and fortunately only rarely consider it as an inglorious exception.
Also, I think the Camera would be a decent test because it deserves what it has been set, the device will likely not meet.
Antwort von r.p.television:
I would be synonymous interested to know which pictures of the EX1 the face of an interview partner makes. And even with direct light angeleuchtet head, once in a more or less well-lit room and in the twilight.
I think besides all of the theory test values and zahlenbehafteten these visual inspections are very meaningful.
The brightness and color gradations of a human face is a challenge for any camera. I think here we detected the greatest difference in 10000th - Euro and say 50000, - Euro.
The sharpness was measured at an XL H1 hitverdächtig. But now faces looked at a Varicam already much better durchzeichnet from.
I know that this is a reproducible test is difficult, because a real person test never looks the same every day and tan skin / aging / daily being subjective perceptual alteration.
But a test in this direction I would be very helpful.
Antwort von Katter:
Thank you for the many test shots - which already give a very good impression of the qualities of the Cam ... is actually just like the street price?
The Katten
Antwort von 2LTime:
if you have been in error corrections, but then ask the actual weight of the ex1 to your technical data.
only 1900 grams without battery are wrong, because still missing about 800 grams for a handheldcam the ex1 is almost too hard and probably the gewichtsträchtigste s.markt. thank you for make your descriptive text.
gruß kroky
Antwort von 2LTime:
whats with the rolling Shuuter Effect?
Antwort von tom:
if you have been in error corrections, but then ask the actual weight of the ex1 to your technical data.
only 1900 grams without battery are wrong, because still missing about 800 grams for a handheldcam the ex1 is almost too hard and probably the gewichtsträchtigste s.markt. thank you for make your descriptive text.
gruß kroky Thank you, is improved - the EX1 Battery without actually weighs 2.4 kilograms
Thomas
Antwort von 2LTime:
At least, enough of this test material Cam. Do I have time tonight purely drag.
Can those who have made the Forum the EX1 his own name and a first impression in a few sentences describe?
Klaus. SORRY, NO, is ordered, but Sony does not come with the delivery. The EX1 seems to sell like crazy!
Antwort von 2LTime:
.. PAL around with that. Lines 400 is, with the Kellfaktor (0.7) is already taken into account. So do 800 lines for an HD Picture no particular impression.
800 x2, which are mainly couples here!
Antwort von sh20:
.. PAL around with that. Lines 400 is, with the Kellfaktor (0.7) is already taken into account. So do 800 lines for an HD Picture no particular impression.
800 x2, which are mainly couples here! Sorry, the other postings have not finished reading. the LP is involved has already been mentioned ...
Antwort von sh20:
have today to test the EX1 in the "digital video" read.
These are the good test results of Slashcam just confirmed!
Antwort von vidwalter:
Hi Rob, hi Rudi
In, for example, clip 61 is during the Zoomfahrt, where the branches come into the picture very clearly to CA sehen.Sobald the zoom stops are the CA but suddenly disappeared! What is your opinion, to explain this phenomenon? Could it be that Sonybei the EX1 compensation built a CA, the only action is when no lens shift take place?
And what's with the sharp Rucklern s.Ende a Shot Transition? Is it always Ruckler and at each preset speed? Is it the Ruckler synonymous with manual control of the {omm?
Many Fragen.Ich white.
mfG: Walter
Antwort von eva:
@ Rudi
... unsubstantielle ramblings ... a group of nonsense ... inglorious exception ... etc. .. etc. .. ... and I can detail this and not very friendly Gehacke nothing to offer, whose result has me so laboriously by a ping-pong through. I need at any rate not in Undergraduate Physics, an impression of the optical qualities of the camera to win. Let alone the details of the signal processing.
I have not studied chemistry synonymous to me in previous years with the behavior of Silberhalogeniden look at this. Picture me, one impression and a lot of experience (synonymous of the other).
That the Lens s.Produkte not in order of magnitude of 20'000-30'000 euro comes, it is surely clear. I expect at a price of 6,000 euros no wonder. All other cams in the price range have also (in part significantly more) apparent distortion and CA, did everything in his hand and held on the monitor.
In any case, thanks for the material that gives an impression of the expected quality of the EX1.
Gruss Eva
Antwort von rudi:
Well, now I have again read my last posting and am probably really something about the severity beaten. Sorry, it was probably just a bit too exasperated to friendly manner, but I did the criticism of Wolfgang somehow be taken personally.
So @ Wolfgang: Not that I am not one of my statements would, but for my sound, I would like to apologize s.dieser body. I like only those phrases like "Because your Messter wrong" is not, after I am really the last 10 years intensively with many details of the measurement camcorder apart and think there was something to have clue. Especially since I own such measurements extremely critical. There are also quite a lot of measurements s.solchen other things to criticize, but this really more times later in a separate article.
But now the phenomenon, which is why I really try to say.
for example, clip 61 is during the Zoomfahrt, where the branches come into the picture very clear to see CA. When the zoom stops are the CA but suddenly disappeared! What is your opinion, to explain this phenomenon? Could it be that Sonybei the EX1 compensation built a CA, the only action is when no lens shift take place? I had only studio in the test with synthetic images and to do to me today of our demo clips that Rob and Tom have done the same, not all views. But what in the clip 61 (Shottransition 2 - From the shade in the bright telephoto shot) can see, is really more than suspicious. I have looked at the bodies now umpteen times with 400 percent magnification views.
In short: I do not synonymous what happened, but the theory of Walter seems to me very conclusive. Especially as the anchor of CA CA not happen very abruptly. Conversely, such a CA-pass digital compensation yes, and yes seems synonymous with a slight camera shake to work. Because, one wonders why Sonysie with lens movements should be off.
In any case, this seems a clear indication to be like Sony at this price Creates an apparently fairly CA-free HD Lens-to construction, which will be extremely sharp: digital correction!
Since I will look like sleep over it and think about how man sowas in a test which could provide.
Regards
Rudi
Ah yes, the Rolling Shutter: Yes because even drastic effects are seen, (if they provoked) but these are at present the system CMOS. And since you can hardly even without current CMOS cameras get, one is willy-nilly, to live with them. (But maybe a point of doubt for the Pana HVX200 speaks).
Antwort von rob:
Hello together,
@ Walter: I have possibly s.Freitag the opportunity to make a couple shots with the EX1 and the HVX200 to make. I will be synonymous with a pair of high-contrast images in order to accurately again to compare what is happening and how these CAs established. That überhaupt CAs s.den said bodies are to be seen, I think rather normal. It is interesting to actually shut down their.
For many of these figures from the laboratory or experience in dealing with a Cam difficult to understand. Perhaps the statements made in the text a little more tangible when compared with those Cam shots there, against which Sonyin primarily positioned.
More so then ...
Many greetings
Rob
Antwort von besucher2007:
na because we are curious thing ...
and
Of course it would be great if you are beside the
high contrast recordings synonymous
-as already noted,
low-contrast shots from indoors without
additional lighting could shoot people with ...
gruß cj
Antwort von besucher2007:
[quote = "rudi"]
In any case, this seems a clear indication to be like Sony at this price Creates an apparently fairly CA-free HD Lens-to construction, which will be extremely sharp: digital correction!
Since I will look like sleep over it and think about how something in a test which could provide. the sache with the ca-correction is actually not new. schaut euch mal the panasonic AG-HPX500 (the "big brother" of the hvx-200), it has a chromatic aberration compensation (CAC) has already built. re would be a similar function in a handheld. I am curious what your test comes out.
gruß kroky
Antwort von WoWu:
As the guest said ... Optics not make it, but the electronics.
The CAC works so far but only with certain lenses and is a joint development of Canon and Fuji and goes to the NHK development for 8k (Ultra HD) Camera back.
From Canon to work the two x-16 Fuji models and of the two x17 models. The camera identifies the Lenses on the control bus and gets a table from the corresponding correction values that have already implemented the correction of color shift (the micro lenses s.Image sensor) just added.
CA Because of the focal subject, resulting in the zoom but permanently altered the correction can not be carried out every picture. Therefore, the whole works in Zoomfahrten not. The function can, moreover (at least in our 2100er) can not be turned off. Only if the lens designation (CAC files) removed from the menu, which recognizes the Camera Optics no longer. Or course, if one deducts the control. The whole system works only in Auto-Focus and servo-controlled lenses.
The function in a 7kEUR camera would be pretty good.
Antwort von vidwalter:
Hi Rob
Thank you that you have the time to take the whole thing again in Comparison with HVX200 to verify. And since you always have the trouble of making an attempt to install the building, but could you (please) synonymous equal what it is trying to understand with a very unprofessional looking Ruckler s.ende a Shot Transition is all about? And whether the Ruckler perhaps synonymous with manual zoom aufdritt. That would be unacceptable for me.
Incidentally, the 720p recording on the hype and s.See fall 1080 compared to the very clear pictures of s.in Bildqualität.Sowol what Resolutionals synonymous the compression quality betrifft.Sehr shame as I think!
Greetings Walter
Antwort von vidwalter:
Hello Wolfgang
<CA Because of the focal subject, resulting in the zoom but permanently altered the correction can not be carried out every picture. Therefore, the whole works in Zoomfahrten not.>
Why do you think the correction may not be performed for each Picture werden.Das makes the circuit but otherwise synonymous (eg, swing at different preset focal).
Greetings Walter
Antwort von Filmcutting:
Hello Rudi and Rob,
The test of EX1 in the computer has the video Ruckler s.Ende a ShotTransition also found and are of the opinion that this problem is by UpDate zubeseitigen. To s.wurde fast einstztende Zoom (manual) kritiesiert. Was this in your test synonymous detectable? An imprecise zoom is working, however, not the typical Sony.
Antwort von WoWu:
@ Walter
Hello Walter
Priority Processing heist the system, the DSP tasks distributed and, unfortunately, because only a picture window of time available, the process must be shortened so that the dynamic CAC is one of the last Tasker has been allocated. Even the edge after sharpening is the active image content shortens performed. So it has no more time for analysis and adopted the fixed values from the Look-Up Table. Since the whole thing on every single pixel of the CMOS effect, you can not synonymous "after work", but with the processes before the recording finished. The list of tasks is processed in CMOS round here and I want Sensi Belchen not like eva with details nerves.
Who is interested in is described in the Book ...
Antwort von vidwalter:
Hello Wolfgang
If it is as you describe it, such a CA would only compensate for static and thus the DSP is not too stressful settings make sense and should be switched off. Because, if the DSP is highly demanded, CA CA-jumps are not too visible. And these are very disturbing! (Depending on the motive of course)
Greetings Walter
Antwort von besucher2007:
@ Walter
That is unfortunately not. Only if you have the CAC from the File menu or deletes the control connection to unpick Lens.
Or, of course, another lens is used. Everything really no meaningful solutions. The P cameras, the more so because the producers of course synonymous with Lenses CA offer very little that one synonymous with good quality without CAC can run but in the price class EX1 and soon synonymous in camcorders, this will be a problem. I know of no cheap without clear Lens CA. So attack the Manufacturer yes to such corrections.
Antwort von vidwalter:
Hello Guest
Well, I've no objection if the Manufacturer integrieren.Ganz such circuits in gegenteil.Aber if that should be synonymous in such a way that the recording quality is not a negative influence. For the purposes of: time, it times out while recording!
I'm anxious times. Regards
Antwort von WoWu:
Hi Walter ..
I had just forgotten login ... Answer was of me.
But you're right, if at least the transitions would be subtle.
Otherwise the function is pretty good. We continue anyway little Zoom Zoom but use only the focal length setting, so little "trips".
But that is far from the end of the flagpole, the possibilities of CMOS are not yet finished.
It would in this case "only" a question of caching and the redistribution of tasks during the zoom. "The" only "I will not be interest in Eve's next explained. But there are approaches.
Antwort von Eva:
"The" only "I will not be interest in Eve's next explained. But there are approaches. This is awful nice. But - as said the Rhinelanders: Jeck Everyone is different. Things that interest me now: Can I as an early adopter because (usually not immediately buy any rubbish) reckon that any bugs (see, for example, the apparently serious problem of Ruckler in Shottransition) via software update to be disposed of SONY get? After all, I get so Silver support, if - if yes then finally times the Camera would be available. Let's see what happens in such cases it brings. But the moment seems to have patience and wait to be announced, since all these have to Camera ...
Antwort von besucher2007:
Hi Eva
I guess yes, the elimination of bugs as a reason that the Auslieverung so much delayed. Apparently so far only a few Demo s.diverse Dealers delivered.
Greetings Walter
Antwort von WoWu:
@ Eve
Hello Jeck ..
I think we have to bow and between Systemimmanenz differ. The reverse is certainly Rucker Bugfix away by the switching of the CAC will mean some hardware and certainly not of happen to be achieved.
If I wanted to annoy you, would you like me now the amount of arithmetic operations say which would be required but I prefer to leave because you are so dear to Level descriptor searched.
Antwort von DWUA:
@ "Eva" and "wowu".
Your "Jecke" are a feast for Michael Meier Mitter;))
Can you even Things "embody".
Widespread even fun.
Unfortunately, neither in the Rhineland in Colombia known.
: / (
Antwort von WoWu:
if what is evil, there is no more free coffee ..
Antwort von DWUA:
;)
nö, no slave labor.
Rather expensive, well-groomed, green tea from Japan.
Antwort von besucher2007:
.... no slave labor ... 30 ha only 1500m from the finest upland fresh picked, dried, and roasted on copper s.selben still evening in the cup.
Not so with Brazilian harvest scrap Tschibogemisch blended.
... But that was not here .. `tschuldigung topic
Antwort von Eva die jecke:
@ Eve
Hello Jeck ..
If I wanted to annoy you, would you like me now the amount of arithmetic operations say which would be required but I prefer to leave because you are so dear to Level descriptor searched. Neeneee, ägern I am not. As a scientist, I am the livelong day with sufficient computing operations around when I get in my precious free time video shoot, I will not synonymous still trying bits and bytes. The device should work and make good pictures, basta. To which are certainly highly complex intricacies of the processing algorithms to the people at SONY sonstwer and shatter the skull, I remain as beautiful times in the role of dumb Userin. Eventually requires Filmerei yes synonymous much else s.Wissen.
I see the matter this way: Halbzoll chips in a Henkelmann Cam. That gave's not yet. Is 35mm a little longer look. Ne shoulder mounted camcorder would have me to travel too great. Memory cards can I find synonymous perfect, because I always everything on hard drive archive. I was at the last time the lengthy reading of the tapes annoyed. And then no more problems synonymous with dust and moisture in the drive! The quality of the pictures of the EX1 seems clearly to lie about HDV, probably near s.Niveau the other XDCAM. And the movement seems to resolution after all, so what I have seen, better than synonymous HDV to be. Since I'm always fast car movies, this is a criterion. The purchase decision has been made, the part is ordered.
Gruss Eva
Antwort von WoWu:
Congratulations .... may your decision before the rest of the currently available devices understand the NAB would have to wait, because MPEG2 is just MPEG2 and if you look at the gruesome artifacts in the night takes ansiehst, and the sky at the swing over the lake ... . I do not know.
For me, MPEG2 end of next year a dead horse ...
But the card switch is super, find 'ich synonymous. Just not quite cheap, because the maps, depending on the use of synonymous to "consume" and soon a lot of memories have indescribable .... And of course by the software are proprietary. Why should they be so cheap.
So there is plenty of "For" and "cons" ....
But still, congratulations on the decision.
Antwort von Eva:
.... But the NAB would have to wait .... I do not know.
For me, MPEG2 end of next year a dead horse ... NEN times I had neighbors who told me for years, which soon become the ultimate stereo system on the market, waiting times from it. And I think the latter, he still ...
"For" and "cons" .... Yes, the Time Lapse and not to forget! Landscapes with Time Lapse can sort of look like magic. In the EX1 spins no disc, no tape sets a limit. I can time a day can condense!
Synonymous love this clip of Philip Bloom, his EX1 with 35mm adapter has tested ...
Good night,
Eva
Antwort von Panatec:
@ wowu:
Priority Processing heist the system, the DSP tasks distributed and, unfortunately, because only a picture window of time available, the process must be shortened so that the dynamic CAC is one of the last Tasker has been allocated. Do you ensure that happens in the EX1, or suspect you only because it is so at Panasonic? I would be interested only because the Cam-Manufacturer of course is certainly not so easy to see in maps.
Even the edge after sharpening is the active image content shortens performed. The edge sharpening is still on a Convolution Matrix done, right? How can shorten because?
So it has no more time for analysis and adopted the fixed values from the Look-Up Table. Since the whole thing on every single pixel of the CMOS effect, you can not synonymous "after work", but with the processes before the recording finished. I am absolutely clear that in a DSP pixels in one go and from durchschleust performance / architectural reasons not related to bifurcations. Therefore, a LUT obvious. Only when the LUT is generated for the CAC? Probably not for any extra Picture, or (it would be the meaning of the LUT then yes). But really no preference. If it has a LUT, then could the CAC but in any event synonymous wärhend use a focal length change, right?
Where did I because the reasoning?
Gelmo
Antwort von Noakyl:
@ Panatec
Hello Gelmo
Despite the fact that it probably critique of then again all hail the forum participants that are not "böm'schen villages' want to read, I will refer briefly to your questions.
Obviously I do not know how Sonydas make and when, would not the place to explain it. As a physicist, I come from the ways and procedures when applications with procedures may be based on the way closed. Different companies have always around to set up such procedures and the CAC is not synonymous Sony or Pana invention but NHK is based on the findings, together with Fuji and Canon has been developed. In this sense, perhaps proprietary algorithms and implementations, but not functionality.
The edges can be sharpened after two currently standard procedure. Sequentially or by a reduction and a process carried out in the above image analysis. The use of filters or dedicated hardware is available in modern designs, as you would, little more common. Scalable algorithms are used to the rigid procedures in future. These priorities must be set to ensure that an "unfinished" picture is still usable.
So the tasks are assigned priorities. So synonymous with the edges sharpened and although the image analysis for this process is well below 10% of the available computing time is it in the sum of the tasks for the DSP relatively much. Therefore, after analyzing the first image content with the greatest activity processed, depending on the remaining time (total) synonymous lower priorities.
Think you look at the CAC here, have another dynamic image analysis to take place to ensure the correction of each pixel of the sensors can be made. Certainly possible, but would have the computing power that are available have a lot dan. Therefore, we fixed the values from the tables. In addition, an analysis of the focal higher dissolved in order to generate any stage. Again, the values would grow exponentially, especially when you zoom even with sub-resolutions, so wanted to bring dynamic.
Everything theoretically feasible and probably synonymous already in the drawers, but, as you see, not yet in the cameras. And the first step is the most important, namely the transition of the hardware to software algorithms, which are limited to exchange it.
To that extent these issues should be still pretty much stuck Dynamics. Anyway, the IP will stand in the center and very much part of his installations, because lenses, for example, despite all the progress s.den physical limits are and UHD without such aids as not to be viewed.
Now I know not whether your questions, I have met in the core, but tries hab'es, synonymous to "non-specialists" vividly slightly so that it is not "hail".
Antwort von WoWu:
... oh, this is annoying login ..
Antwort von Filmcutting:
Sonypubliziert errors in some PMW-EX1 HD Camcorder
see link
https: / / webmail.mdcc-fun.de/services/go.php? url = http% 3A% 2F% 2Fwww.film-tv-video.de% 2Fnewsdetail.html% 3F% 26uid% 3D36998% 3D1% 26no_cache
Antwort von Panatec:
The edges can be sharpened after two currently standard procedure. Sequentially or by a reduction and a process carried out in the above image analysis. The use of filters or dedicated hardware is available in modern designs, as you would, little more common. Scalable algorithms are used to the rigid procedures in future. These priorities must be set to ensure that an "unfinished" picture is still usable.
So the tasks are assigned priorities. So synonymous with the edges sharpened and although the image analysis for this process is well below 10% of the available computing time is it in the sum of the tasks for the DSP relatively much. Therefore, after analyzing the first image content with the greatest activity processed, depending on the remaining time (total) synonymous lower priorities. Madness. If you are so right, or I understand you correctly, it means yes, this is the post-sharpening (and other Bildotptimierungen), only full quality takes place when the camera has the time. Well since I do not want to be responsible Sceduler. So the image quality synonymous depends on whether the camera being heavily burdened the DSP, or just leerläuft. The Manufacturer must be quite risky if the picture quality can change, because the runtime of the algorithms is not always the same.
Think you look at the CAC here, have another dynamic image analysis to take place to ensure the correction of each pixel of the sensors can be made. Certainly possible, but would have the computing power that are available have a lot dan. This is obvious to me.
Therefore, we fixed the values from the tables. In addition, an analysis of the focal higher dissolved in order to generate any stage. Again, the values would grow exponentially, especially when you zoom even with sub-resolutions, so wanted to bring dynamic. What I do not understand it, and what my question was aimed: Where does the LookUpTable ago, or when will be generated. Now I have thought over it and the answer is already found themselves. The LUT has nothing with the image content, but rather as one focal per table is saved, or do I see this wrong?
Anyway, the IP will stand in the center and very much part of his installations, because lenses, for example, despite all the progress s.den physical limits are and UHD without such aids as not to be viewed. Well, what happened to me in this context gives hope is the fact that CAs will probably synonymous in the post rausrechnen can. Even the cheapest HDV Cams write the focal recording of the MPEG-TS stream. Thus could be (at least in theory) each fpr a camcorder synonymous CAC anything for all Semiprofis here would be a great thing. For the Canon XH-series would be an auto-post-CAC s.PC surely even fairly easy to sell. Well, maybe someone will be here so inspired by this thread.
Gelmo
Antwort von WoWu:
Hello Gelmo
.. as I see it, the LookUpTables together with the measurements of Lenses by Manufacturer, because they are individually along the lens quality of course are different. The camera makes a comparison so synonymous with the lens and if I correctly, synonymous with the serial number.
Sure you could all make analysis by synonymous only if you have all the other times demands that are not even mentioned, there seems, then that is so pretty ambitious and I can well understand why the once so has solved .
Whether in the post without so much as is possible ...? After you have it with a calculated pixels to be done, now all values.
Whether you as easily as the colors rausbekommt? But one thought it would be good times. Operation should be extended to all cases with the RAW data from the cameras. But there have to be synonymous, of course, a first LUT write.
Only, I believe that the medium such features synonymous in the consumer Cams revoke, when I watch the new architectures, then it is a matter of time.
Yes, is sharpening the edges slightly as MPEG and relies on that one just looks so, where has worked. But all processes go slightly in that direction ... synonymous why not? And people want it all anyway "kontrastlos" and then call it Film Look, so why ever sharpening edges. (This was not entirely serious).
The case is only interesting if we get different temporal resolutions ... then it goes right to the point.
Antwort von WoWu:
.. or forget ... as I see it, the LUTs for Lenses 3-dimensional plots.
Antwort von deepcode:
Could today, the EX-1 test itself.
In itself, in almost all areas really succeeded, but unfortunately Sony has zoomed in (probably deliberately!) Geschlampt:
- Zoomwippe / Rocker: NOT A soft start possible, always something ruckig, feels at a Cheap s.wie - Cam. No progression, poorly monitored.
- Manual Zoom: undamped, rough and also ruckig, in contrast to the perfectly soft, subdued Focus ring feels the thing s.wie cheapest plastic toy.
- Shot Transition: The hope here would be a workaround for a smooth zoom, unfortunately, not fulfilled. While you can zoom a soft transition program, but for the perfect Route zoom suddenly jumps to a higher Geschwindigeit and also slows aprupt he again synonymous.
Conclusion: For typical Fair / Industrial Jobs / Docus where many locations / objects in the quieter scenes weich zoomed & direction are definitely NOT to use! For this application first to see what external Zoom - Controller since bring. The zoom feels the Z1 as to better worlds.
Reißzoom and faster variants, however, go natural.
The other: It lacks a limiter for manual Tonaussteuerung! In order to avoid distortions of brutality is an external sound (SQN, etc.) required.
Was very disappointed of this matter.
Antwort von WoWu:
@ All
Weiss someone what the EX1 image sensors for use?
What native resolution?
Unfortunately, the description for the Exmore only "Effective Picture Elements s.and that 1920 is not progressive are possible does not necessarily indicate that the sensor only this time dissolves.
So if someone (reliable) info has ... thanks for feedback.
Antwort von satadioz:
Hello, I personally had of the PMW-EX1 more expected.
The pictures are in my terms a bit sluggish, maybe, the s.der camera settings.
In my terms, the images are the HVX200 filma
Antwort von r.p.television:
Today was time a EX1 in hand and play around a bit.
Conclusion:
After all the Vorschußlorbeeren and the joyful anticipation for my big disappointment. Two shortcomings shoot this camera for me, unfortunately, to Off:
1. The weight balance. The Camera is by handling or the balance so as shitty as my XL H1. Without support of any kind, it is really exhausting. And since I hate it with support systems (excluding tripod) to work like I do not Antu.
2. It was me not a smooth or stuttering Zoomfahrt free to make. Now, some predictions that zoom but eh is totally uncool. I've still many projects where you can by a specific shift in focal length within a recording much better geographical or thematic relationships can be documented with a simple Umschnitt. Since the lens is fixed times s.der Camera hangs and no change is possible is the camera for me unfortunately scrap.
I only hope the Sonyaus learns the error and the soon coming Z7 HDV camcorders and S270 vorallem the errors with the Optics in the grip gets.
The CA-jumps I imagine with some nice pictures synonymous not before. It would have been helpful if Sony Open with this digital correction would be handled (because of magic-Optics) and a switch to disable would be built. Dear CA, I accept, during a shift in focal length than the sudden image change thereafter.
For scenic work with 35mm adapter like the camera suck. Here are the shortcomings of the quasi Zoomservos etc away.
And sell the camera does not seem so good.
My dealer currently has three active orders. 10 orders have been canceled yet again, after the deficiencies of the optics have been discovered.
At least my taste after this trip my recently by certain XH A1 again much better. Here, I can at half price Zoomfahrten make smooth ....
Antwort von WaldemarSchuh:
And those things are synonymous with the part not yet properly resolved ...
http://www.freshdv.com/mjeppsen/video/ex1_strobe_cmos_rolling_shutter_artifact.mov
Antwort von r.p.television:
And those things are synonymous with the part not yet properly resolved ...
http://www.freshdv.com/mjeppsen/video/ex1_strobe_cmos_rolling_shutter_artifact.mov Ouch. That looks so real nasty out.
So concert recordings or recordings with generally fast changing light are synonymous away. Since synonymous helps the high sensitivity to light nothing.
The CMOS sensors and their Rolling shutter problem but does not seem the yellow from the egg to be.
Unfortunately, these are synonymous, the two HDV camcorders that are s.February follow.
I sense no good, but let me be happy positive surprise ....
Antwort von seedee701:
Just because you can see what the test for experts.
Antwort von FredS:
... To be quite accurate to describe this is the unity LW / PH (line widths per picture height), from the famous ISO12233 chart is removed. It will soon have a detailed article on this measurement method, which both the strengths as synonymous describes the weaknesses.
Hello Rudi,
Are there any articles related to the designated cut-off frequency of the measuring method now?
Many greetings
Fred
