Frage von Nostromo75:
Hello together
This contribution is not a direct question, but my previous experience as good as possible together. I can imagine that synonymous other people have this problem, to which I shall detail. My hope is, of course, is here a satisfactory answer to come closer. Only the problem is diffuse and difficult to grasp concretely, since many factors come together. But now:
I create 3D animations, that is synthetically generated images, and would like nothing next as smooth display on the monitor. Because video-DVD `s, for example, of films, or synonymous Quicktime movie files of trailers are very liquid on my calculator. As an example, here times a link:
http://www.apple.com/trailers/independent/delgo/
Look out the HD trailer. The times I take as a reference.
My normal workflow looks like this: image sequence render in Cinema 4D as PSD files (have been synonymous tga, tif and jpeg probiert is irrelevant), usually 1280x720 with 25 or 50 fps, and AA Best Filters: animation, no scenes -MotionBlur. That I give in for After Effects for compositing `s and / or effects like depth blur (shake, with Depth-layer) and natural Color correction. Of course I am on the eighth Comp correct settings, so constant frame rate and so next. To test synonymous but I go directly into Premiere (whether the image sequence of C4D or AE is synonymous is ultimately no preference), and cut Verton something and then admit to uncompressed AVI or Quicktime from. Then in MainConcept h.264 and when compressed, with 4-6 Mbits (Look look at the data rate of the Apple Trailers, it is quite amazing). or I suppose the Adobe Media Encoder and give directly from Quicktime h.264. Or I unpack the uncompressed file directly in Quicktime Pro and export in h.264. Only takes a bit longer :-)
The result is very close to the same: It jerky, especially when panning. If I do it, do I connect 2 Quicktime movies online, test films, where it violently jerky. Noting that the camera around the nodal pans but are on a circular orbit moves.
Here is a link of A, which is apparently synonymous mightily annoyed: http://www.slashcam.de/info/3D-Animationen-aus-Premiere-CS3-ruckelfrei-exportieren-290175.html
I have the impression that the good old tube TVs with interlaced material still produces the best quality, can that be? The fact that computer monitors or the format that more or less problems with it have? Just why are "professionally" produced content such as those above trailer so good? What is the workflow beio those from? Do the other programs, other encoders? A special solution with special software or plug-ins for the viewer (client), I would like to exclude the trailer proves the contrary.
I am happy synonymous suggestions and grateful. If you have ideas, always so forth. I even go now and the potential options, I have been months without any significant problems s.der progress.
Oh yes, I'm working on a PC with current hardware, WinXP.
LG
Christian
Antwort von Daigoro:
"Bucking" says not very much.
Problem 1 could be:
"usually 1280x720 with 25 or 50 fps"
The LCD on his computer monitor with 60Hz looks ever .. modest. The trailer (which I can not see) is either 24p (jerky then differently to 60Hz) or software to 30p extrapolated so that the whole of standard 60Hz LCDs can be distributed.
Problem 2 could be the Bewegungsunschaerfe - which is available at computer animation and which do not normally looks choppy from.
(Problem 3 could be somewhere in the chain of your software workflows are - because you have to look, s.wann it rueckeln starts - but which I know even less, so sag ich mal nix zu:)
Antwort von MarcBallhaus:
, Usually 1280x720 with 25 or 50 fps Next, I have not read your post. Since you have your answer already.
MB
Antwort von TiMovie:
Please send time a test sequence to be able to accurately judge!
gruß TiMovie
Antwort von Nostromo75:
Here, as promised, two test-trailer. The one without the blur, the other with Blur in AE generated. MotionBlur in Cinema 4D, I have not added, but it will again Testrendern and spend. I have also the impression that really the individual frames to be identified. Why Apple sees the trailer (above) with "only" 24 fps to smooth out?
http://nostromo.beeven.eu/index.php?dir=ruckelprobleme%2F
LG
Christian
Antwort von Daigoro:
Why Apple sees the trailer (above) with "only" 24 fps to smooth out?
Because the guys who make movies, usually quite know exactly what they do (except the Boll: P - I like him anyway on a trashy art and part) and the perfect illusion of movement created.
Emphasis on the "look"
Antwort von Nostromo75:
Problem 2 could be the Bewegungsunschaerfe - which is available at computer animation and which do not normally looks choppy from.
This may well be, I will use the WE and in the sequence with C4D again SzenenMotionBlur render. Alternatively you can of Re: Vision ReelSmart plug-in use in C4D needs SMB halt render time a lot, unfortunately.
Christian
Antwort von tommyb:
Only one approach:
Export your movie as "interlaced" material with 50 frames and use a deinterlacer which each half zusammenblendet.
Possibly. You lose this s.Schärfe, the loss should be far below what you BLUR with the receive filter.
Antwort von MarcBallhaus:
Only one approach:
Export your movie as "interlaced" material with 50 frames and use a deinterlacer which each half zusammenblendet.
Possibly. You lose this s.Schärfe, the loss should be far below what you BLUR with the receive filter. Yes sure. Super idea. Argh ... Why does the idea None times in frequency to render the computer monitor, that is 60Hz, so 30p.
@ Nostromo
Why you ignore my post? Here is the answer!
I have the Apple trailer and your views. I find your way, really good animation!
Why the Apple trailer looks so smooth? Simply because there is no swing there. Your frames are clean, the trailers from Apple have motion blur. That is not alone. Of AE s.kannst you with no motion blur on it later if you give the keys in the composition, you need to RSMB. AE counts only the blur to moving layers or Slomos, not on image content.
But, as I said, the problem is the 50/60 Hz interference, not the Motion Blur. What do you expect? A 50 Hz film with a steady movement can be set at 60 Hz - what your monitor is always - do not look clean, there must be at 25p just 5 images per second to be repeated - Conclusion: It is jerky! ALWAYS! LOGICALLY!
Render it out and 30p in guckst to you again. Or burn it to DVD and guckst s.TV to you.
MB
Antwort von PowerMac:
With 50 Hz jerky here but synonymous ...
That means I have a monitor with 50 Hz and two clips Jerkiness. At the 60Hz/50Hz-Problematik it is not.
Antwort von MarcBallhaus:
With 50 Hz jerky here but synonymous ... Where, here?
When I look at the frames of his progressively through the clip, but the movements are clearly frame by frame to see no picture repeats itself, seems no frame of the previous time disproportionately to be far away, none will be superimposed on, da stimmt alles!
The Apple Trailer jerky no less synonymous, it is only because of the Picture-In-Action and the quick cuts not so.
MB
Antwort von tommyb:
Render it out and 30p in guckst to you again. Or burn it to DVD and guckst s.TV to you. Let us all move to America, we are sure this problem has NEVER AGAIN ...
Antwort von Axel:
Hm, for me the first movie jerky a little bit, the second very little. The swing speed would be an original 24p or 25p recording also bucking the problem are the many vertical lines in combination with the swing speed. Even if the motion blur in a real recording shows what one of you in the individual frames do not see, so it probably does not blur it.
Expect but synonymous with Blur (RSMB around, but how to recognize the three-dimensionality? Can C4D with no motion blur generate?) No wonder. There are pans, before a hilly landscape work, but with the same speed on vertical stripes inevitably shakes. With double frequency is not
eliminated, the bucking, which is an ever repeated misconception: It
doubled it. This will change only the optimal Geschwindiggkeit a pan, the basic situation is the same.
The Apple trailer - all for 24p animated, synonymous in the case of 3D, where it is just 24p
per eye are - has a very majestic, slow pans and tracking pans, which are rather rapidly. Respect is due to the latter is synonymous to a bucking, but the joke is that since it is the motif respects.
Slow down or accelerate the whole swing, he will motion blur with no more bucking.
But not the bucking entlarvt your - very beautiful - such as animation, but a strange flicker on concrete pillars.
Antwort von Nostromo75:
Hi Folks
First, Thanks for your suggestions, comments and ideas.
I have a third test of online video, this time with MotionBlur scene in Cinema 4D rendering. This has spontaneously 16x longer than a normal frame would expect, is quite impractical. The file is called turning SMB.
http://nostromo.beeven.eu/index.php?dir=ruckelprobleme%2F
@ Axel:
Good explanation. I hope I find the time and may try it soon. Be at least a test with 4 instead of 8 seconds. The Apple trailer has a minimal total synonymous trembling inside, I think this is basically due to computer monitors the case. Is there a kind of thumb value or guidelines to determine the optimal Schwenkgeschindigkeit or is it simply a matter of trial, ie in each case depending on motive?
BTW: Look at the times of concrete columns in my third trailer, the work of the SMB is clearly visible.
@ Marc ball home:
I had already spent 30 fps and it has not really changed. I will test exactly this movie again with 30 fps render times watch, what rumkommt.
Second thing: Thanks for pointing that AE no picture content with Blur documented. But the Reel Smart Plug-in audit of doing it. Because each frame 16x longer in Cinema 4D to render is ultimately not in proportion.
@ all:
I have already considered, in principle, everything in 24p output. Why? Because I made because of virtually any size can produce:
1. 24p, quasi-native cinema format and display on the computer
2. 24p to 25p or 50i is running about 4% faster, the good old way in PAL area, without a frame goes flutes.
3. 24p with 3:2 pulldown in 30p or 60i and I decke from NTSC. There may even be used for computer display, if it is with 30 fps to 60 Hertz should prove better than.
Antwort von PowerMac:
(...) Is there a kind of thumb value or guidelines to determine the optimal Schwenkgeschindigkeit or is it simply a matter of trial, ie in each case depending on motive? (...) Yes, there is. Google times in this direction. There are many tables for ...
Antwort von Axel:
Your last film looks very photorealistic from. What do you want more?
Antwort von Nostromo75:
Moin People
Here is the version with 30fps. And the looks with distance from s.Besten, I think. For me it is jerky when you first play garnicht, then s.and then be quite short, but quite bearable.
http://www.nostromo.beeven.eu/index.php?dir=ruckelprobleme%2F
The file is called Dreh_SMB_30fps_out
I have 30fps with 9fach and scenes in Cinema-MotionBlur rendered. Alternatively, I could test again with NEN RSMB make, whether it is a big difference occurs or not.
@ Marc ball home: Apparently it depends but with the frequency of the monitor together. Just why does the Apple trailer with 24fps as well? Time of the arguments such as "You pay attention to the motive" apart. And the already correct, if there is no protagonist, moves to the background, in which case my warehouse at the center. Moreover, no depth blur it.
Antwort von Daigoro:
If the computer could play what jerky is synonymous s.System and his rumgewerkel lie in the background.
- Paging file is too s.and times filled / emptied
- The hard drive is indexed (indexing of files, you can usually) off - brings eh not much for desktops, unless you have an infidel and must be chaos after each file with the search wastage).
- The real-time virus scanner roedelt like rum times when files are accessed
- If there is no extra partition has to be large media files like synonymous fragmented times over the entire disk (if grad much movement on the plate -> extra hard drive for media files, the 500GB external .. there's even some for 50 euros)
Just why does the Apple trailer with 24fps as well? I think experienced people who work daily with something simply have their little tricks and gimmicks to look at things better than they actually are.
There is a better visual than technical factors. On the Web you can find thousands of tutorials on this and that - if all durchliest and dominated from the FF, it seems synonymous to the target.
Antwort von MarcBallhaus:
@ Marc ball home: Apparently it depends but with the frequency of the monitor together. Just why does the Apple trailer with 24fps as well? Time of the arguments such as "You pay attention to the motive" apart. And the already correct, if there is no protagonist, moves to the background, in which case my warehouse at the center. Moreover, no depth blur it. Because no cut for so long is that the notice would be bucking. And if you look closely, it is no less jerky as yours. Simple example, take one camera, film and the same 90-degree swivel, sometimes with 25p, 30p with times, each with 1 / 50 shutter. And then play it. You will see that the effect is exactly the same as in your animation.
Who / what do you work? Free Unless you are, do you want me to do something? I find your work really great! I do primarily commercial music videos. Poste doch mal deine E-mail address, then I send you my contact.
On the Web you can find thousands of tutorials on this and that - if all durchliest and dominated from the FF, it seems synonymous to the target. ... but you then such a synonymous times;)
Antwort von Nostromo75:
@ Marc ball home: kontakt@nostromo.beeven.eu
